What cup did Jesus ask to be taken away?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Lorelei, Jan 27, 2003.

  1. Lorelei

    Lorelei
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    I have always heard, and believed, that the cup Jesus was referring to was His impending death on the cross, taking the burden of our sins. That Christ was willing to bear it, but his flesh would have preferred to find another method to fulfill his goal, if possible. There was no other way, so Jesus, submitted to the Father's will, not his fleshly one.

    Last night I heard a sermon that said this was not so. That Jesus was referring to the impending scene about to take place in the garden. He said that satan was trying to convince him that the blood he shed while praying was enough and he didn't need the cross. According to Him, Jesus didn't want to shed his blood there in the garden, but at the cross where it needed to be shed. Therefore, when he said, not my will but yours, he actually got the answer he wanted for both wills were the same.

    Has anyone else ever heard this or have another interpretation of this verse? I wasn't too impressed with this one, but I am wondering is this guy alone in this belief?

    ~Lorelei
     
  2. Jim1999

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    Frankly, I think it is a novel approach to the "sweat, as it were, great drops of blood.."

    In English, the phrase, "as it were" does not indicate a reality, but the image...hence the sweat was like great drops of blood. This would put some constraints of this concept, I should think.

    It would appear the common understanding remains firm in this case. Jesus, in all His humanity, naturally would rather not face such a death.......he momentarily surrenders His divinity...and takes on the sins of the world to provide a way of escape.....His shed blood on the cross.

    That is my understanding, but interesting.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  3. Ulsterman

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    Search the Scriptures for this phrase “the cup” as it relates to the work of God, and we start to piece together its meaning. “Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the LORD the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out.” (Isaiah 51:17).
    “The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.” (Revelation 14:10).
    “And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.” (Revelation 16:19).
    The cup of his fury, trembling, indignation, fierceness of His wrath. This was the cup which repelled the Lord Jesus, and why? Because to receive it justly he must bear in Himself man’s sin.

    You heard some fanciful preaching, but I fear it had no exegetical grounds.
     
  4. Grasshopper

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    I believe the impending wrath of God.
     
  5. Dr. Bob

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    This terrible act of the Father making the Son "sin" - not just "bearing" our sin, but "being" our sin - is a judgment of eternal hell for all His own.

    Jesus looked ahead to becoming "sin" and the forsaking of the Father (from whom He has never been separated for all eternity) - THAT was the "cup" Jesus pleaded to avoid . . .
     
  6. Graceforever

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    Exactly Jim……

    IMO, this was just a picture for us to see how hard (and earnest) that Jesus was sweating….. This was not literally blood that he was sweating, but they were thick drops of sweat as large as great drops of blood…..

    The cup that Jesus asked to be removed, this was his separation from God… From eternity past until that present time, Jesus was always one with the father, never separated…. Of course he had to be made sin for the sake of his dying for the sins of others…. He knew that God would not dwell in an unclean temple…. That is why he said, “my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me”….. God actually turned his back on his son in order for him to die…. What a great sacrifice…. This was the bitter cup that Jesus was referring too, not his terrible death on the cross……
     
  7. Lorelei

    Lorelei
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    Thanks for your posts. I too agree with what you all have said. I don't know where he got this from, I will have to ask. His preaching is usually pretty solid, so this one sort of threw me. I thought maybe someone had heard of this being taught before, but I guess he came up with this one on his own.

    Anyway, thanks for your input. Your descriptions were beautiful and biblical. [​IMG]

    ~Lorelei
     
  8. Jim1999

    Jim1999
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    Just as a point of interest: When a hound runs in the full heat of following a scent, it runs so hard and so full of intent, its tail literally shows the evidence of bleeding. It has a trace of red colour at the very tip. This fact of nature, perhaps lends some credence to the idea of "great drops of blood"...Absolute passion...total commitment. Owning 6 hounds as I do, I just remembered this fact as our Beagles run around the woodlot chasing rabbits,,,,,which they never catch. They are just pets and NOT hunting dogs.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  9. Lorelei

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    I spoke with the preacher and got a little more in depth explanation of what he believes. First let me share with you a quote that was sent to me by a friend. Another, interesting fact.

    The pastor said that he really had a difficult time believing that Christ, whether in the flesh or not, would ask the Father to take away the cup that he willingly came to this earth in the flesh to fulfill. He then pointed out that Christ said take "this" cup not "the coming cup" or "that" cup". So he feels that the cup Jesus was referring to had to do with something that happened in the garden.

    A scripture he used to back this up with says that God heard his prayer, not that God denied his prayer.

    At the very least he made a better argument because it was based upon his sincere belief that Christ wouldn't change his mind about going to the cross. It at least peeked my interest to dig a bit further. If nothing else it will give me yet another reason to dig into the Word and that is always a blessing!

    ~Lorelei
     
  10. donnA

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    We had someone come and teach about the passover from Jews For Jesus. He talked about the cup Jesus spoke of here, He is relating to a cup served during the passover, the cup of suffering. More I don't remember.
     
  11. David A Bayliss

    David A Bayliss
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    I think that to dig to the bottom of this one you first need to think 'what does it mean for the Lord to pray?' and 'why is it recorded?'

    Consider :-

    Mt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    Are we really going to consider that the Lord knew of the plan of salvation from before the beginning of the universe and yet it didn't occur to him to try to figure this one out earlier?

    Of course not. The Lord made that statement for our benefit. It was showing how his human nature reacted to the predicament he was in. His divine nature could simply have stopped proceedings without a problem.

    I think you get a similar view in the garden. The Lord was about to drink of the cup of wrath; we see these clearly in Rev 15+. He took that wrath for you and I. The one who knew no sin was about to become sin. It is not suprising that he recoiled at the reality. Yet the purposes of the divine nature clearly overran his internal horror.

    HTH

    DAB

    [/QUOTE]At the very least he made a better argument because it was based upon his sincere belief that Christ wouldn't change his mind about going to the cross. It at least peeked my interest to dig a bit further. If nothing else it will give me yet another reason to dig into the Word and that is always a blessing!

    [/QUOTE]
     
  12. Artimaeus

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    Jesus never changed his mind and the scene in Gethsemane gives no indication that that occured. Did Jesus WANT to be tortured to death in this manner? No. Did he EVER want this? No. He was always willing to do the Father's will and I see no change here. I agree with all of the posters so far. Wow!
     
  13. Paul of Eugene

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    When Jesus had the last supper with His disciples, he told them the cup was His blood. In fact, it had always been a symbol of His blood in the mind and heart of God, celebrated unknowingly across the ages.

    When Jesus was in the garden, he face the prospect of shedding His blood, and all that went with it. We know he was agonizing over the total sacrifice He was going to make, of course, but as part of that, He was about to lose his blood. The symbolic cup would now be filled.

    What heavenly reality is reflected in this "cup?" we cannot know. The writer of Hebrews tells us Jesus entered into the real temple, of which the earthly temple is only a symbol, bearing His own blood as our atonement. (Hebrews 9:12) At some point the mind becomes unable to discern the literal from the symbol and we simply accept His atonement on faith.
     
  14. HankD

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    Jesus resurrection was the answer to His prayer.

    HankD
     

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