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Featured What day is the Lord's Day according to Scripture?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Apr 19, 2013.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 4 quotes from Ps 95:7 and affirms that the same rest of the Sabbath keeping people of God in Ps 95:7 "remains" for the saints today.

    No Christian scholars suppose that the Seventh day Sabbath was abolished in the days of David writing Psalms 95 and that the Jews no longer keep it.

    And in Hebrews 11 Paul points to a whole host of the OT people of God that entered into His rest in the OT. (Enoch and Elijah - and Moses actually go to heaven in the OT)

    I think we all see that point clearly.

    Which is why the Baptist Confession and the Westminster confessions of the 17th century both confirmed the same views as we see held by Andy Stanley, D.L. Moody, R.C.Sproul and many others regarding the fact that the Ten Commandments (not merely 9) were given in Eden and are applicable still - to all the saints.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #101 BobRyan, Apr 27, 2013
  2. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Verses brought by the people who support the Gathering on Sundays:


    ( C ) Rev 1:10
    I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
    Who is simply Lord when it is mentioned in connection with a certain day of the week?

    The word < Lord > without mentioning Jesus Christ can simply mean Jehovah in the OT as we read here:

    Acts 2
    16 but this is that which was spoken through the prophet Joel,
    17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, [that] I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your elders shall dream with dreams;
    18 yea, even upon my bondmen and upon my bondwomen in those days will I pour out of my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
    19 And I will give wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
    20 the sun shall be changed to darkness and the moon to blood, before the great and gloriously appearing day of [the] Lord come.
    21 And it shall be that whosoever shall call upon the name of [the] Lord shall be saved.

    Joel 2
    28 And it shall come to pass afterwards [that] I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions.
    29 Yea, even upon the bondmen and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit.
    30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
    31 The sun shall be changed to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and terrible day of Jehovah come.
    32 And it shall be that whosoever shall call uponthe name of Jehovah shall be saved: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as Jehovah hath said, and for the residue whom Jehovah shall call.


    So, we can notice the Lord in NT is often the translation of Jehovah in OT
    In OT the Day of Jehovah is used for the day of Judgment ( Isaiah 13:6, 9, Zech 14:1,..)



    The following verses are useful to understand which day was meant by Lord’s Day:

    Exodus 20:10
    But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

    Leviticus 23:3
    Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, a holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

    Ezekiel 20:16
    Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols.

    Ezekiel 20:20
    And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the Lord your God.

    Therefore Lord’s Day in Rev 1:10 is more likely to be interpreted as the Day of Jehovah, the Sabbath of Jehovah!
     
    #102 Eliyahu, Apr 27, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2013
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Again, theNew Covenant was when jesus nailed ALL the ordiances of the law that were against us to the Cross, NOTHING left for us to do to be acceptable to God BUT received jesus by faith alone, saved by gracealone!

    Do yuo agree with Jesus and paul on that truth?
     
    #103 Yeshua1, Apr 29, 2013
  4. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    If that were so, you should not speak of >>the sabbath day rest for chrisitians today<< but of the Sabbath Day-LESS rest for Christians which can only be Jesus Christ in Living Person—a TOTALLY DIFFERENT ‘rest’[-‘katapausis’] than “Sabbatism”[-‘sabbatismos’] or “a keeping” or “a cultural observance OF THE DAY of the Sabbath”. You cannot identify or confuse “Jesus”, “the Rest OF GOD” with something that “remains to be done for the PEOPLE of God”, because that is “THEIR keeping / observance / culture of THEIR Sabbatism-of-the-Sabbath-DAY”.

     
    #104 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Apr 29, 2013
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  5. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    According to the OLD Testament, God closed the New Covenant in eternity already and REPEATED the CONFIRMATION of it WITH ISRAEL, also, in the Old Testament already. Because the New Covenant is God's Covenant of Grace IN AND THROUGH JESUS CHRIST from everlasting to everlasting.

    The New Covenant is God's ONLY and ever New Covenant.
     
    #105 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Apr 29, 2013
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Jesus nailed the "certificate of debt" to the cross - instead of nailing His own Word to the Cross as we see in Col 2:13-14 (NASB).


    The wages of sin is death - Rom 6:23 - Jesus paid our debt of sin - the debt that the Law of God demanded - instead of abolishing the Law that demanded the penalty be paid - He upheld that Law.


    Which is why the Jer 31:31-33 NEW COVENANT has the LAW of God written on the heart.


    it is why Paul can say in 1Cor 7:19 "What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"


    And in Rom 3:31 "do we then make VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God".


    And as John says in Rev 14:12 the saints of God are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus".


    John notes the same point in 1John 5:2 as I am sure you have noticed.


    And so this is why D.L. Moody, Andy Stanley and even your own "Baptist Confession" states that the TEN Commandment Law of God given to mankind in Eden is still binding on the saints today!


    in Christ,


    Bob
     
    #106 BobRyan, Apr 29, 2013
  7. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Jesus said if you love Me, you will keep my commands. He did not say, make up new ones, memorize them, and in your own power, obey them, which is exactly what your denomination is doing and the Pharisees did.

    You mention the Baptist confession. I assume you mean the BF and M. That is a guide. Unlike your denomination, our faith follows the Biblical model of local, autonomous churches without a hierarchy except the Lord. The Baptist confession as you put it is a guide. Even if one belongs to the SBC, for example, they have no governing authority.

    As mentioned before, have you ever read Matthew 23, where Jesus talks about church leaders that load believers up with laws way beyond what was intended, and then the leaders do not obey the ones they should.

    Also, if you have read Romans, the purpose of the law is well defined. It is not a load to carry throughout our lives, it is to show the gap between a Holy God and a sinful man. It is to show our hopeless state of achieving God's standard. It is not a rule book to be memorized and obeyed like a student manual. In fact, if you could obey the law before salvation, it would do you no good. Good works and obeying the law are a byproduct of our new nature and the Holy Spirit in us. You should read James.
     
    #107 saturneptune, Apr 29, 2013
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Indeed.

    And he said that in John 14:15 before the cross - when by every one's measure the TEN COMMANDMENTS were in full force.

    Thus it is no wonder that the Baptist Confession, Westminster Confession, Andy Stanley, D.L. Moody, R.C. Sproul and SDAs are all admitting to the Bible fact that the TEN Commandments were given to mankind in Eden, and are still applicable to the saints today.

    No wonder God says in Isaiah 66:23 that "from Sabbath to Sabbath" in the New Earth "Shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" -- for all eternity.

    I was actually talking about the Baptist Confession of 1689 by Charles Hadden Spurgeon.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1689_London_Baptist_Confession_of_Faith

    I am not insisting that you agree with your own Baptist Confession of Faith - that is for sure.

    I am simply pointing out that in your attacks against the Adventist denomination - you do little more than attack your own Baptist Confession.

    You need to find a method of attack that is more fine tuned - so that you don't swat your own Baptist Confession, the Westminster Confession, Andy Stanley, D.L. Moody, R.C Sproul in your haste to attack the Adventist denomination.

    Improvement in that regard - can only help your argument.


    Indeed - but Jesus was not claiming that the TEN Commandments was in that list.

    In fact in Mark 7 Jesus calls the TEN Commandments "The WORD of God" and then condemns the man-made traditions that try to invalidate one or the other among the TEN COMMANDMENTS.

    It is interesting that in Andy Stanley's sermon on the TEN Commandments - when he gets to the 3rd commandment "do not take God's name in vain" - he argues in his sermon that "one form" of taking God's name in vain is to invoke the name of God as part of an attempt to get out of one of God's commandments.


    That is true for the lost as Paul points out in middle of Romans 3 - but at the end of Romans 3 Paul switches to the role of the Law for the saved saints. And for saved Saints Paul says "Do WE then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God".

    Because for the NEW Creation that is the Saved Saint - the New Covenant writes the LAW of God "on the mind and on the heart".

    Thus when specifically addressing saved saints - Paul can say in 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" - a statement that is in complete harmony with your own Baptist Confession of 1689, and the Westminster Confession, and Andy Stanley's view and D.L. Moody et al.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #108 BobRyan, Apr 30, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2013
  9. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Yeshua1 is spot on correct, >> the New Covenant was when Jesus nailed ALL the ordiances of the law that were against us to the Cross << Yea, “IN HIS OWN BODY”!! Praise God for his everlasting Covenant of GRACE!

    >>Jesus paid our debt of sin - the debt that the Law of God demanded - instead of abolishing the Law that demanded the penalty be paid - He upheld that Law<<—

    How can you speak of this “Law” as if it is not Jesus Christ who is both the Word of God and the Price of God’s ‘demand’, and claim just the contrary and the very denial thereof, that “Jesus … instead of abolishing the Law that demanded the penalty be paid”, “upheld” it—which would mean prevented it demanding and receiving what it demanded?!
    How can you say Christ “upheld that Law” by NOT doing what it ‘demanded’ to uphold its demand and pay, its penalty namely, that HE, be crucified and “taken OUT OF THE WAY”?!
    Jesus HIMSELF has become our debt : “He was made SIN, FOR, US”! … In our place! This He was and this He did while and because He is God’s WORD—God’s Word-LAW, that demanded the payment, and PAID the Payment ‘demanded’ for our sins—CHRIST CRUCIFIED.
    Christ became the ABOLISHMENT of the Law HIMSELF, UPHOLDING the very Word of God He Himself became “instead” or ‘in the place’ of the Law engraven in stone.
    The Law after all “foreshadowed”, HIM! But Bob Ryan gives pre-eminence to the stones above “Christ being the Substance of things-a-coming”.

    “The Word became flesh” is the LAW become flesh in the Person of the Son of Man Jesus Christ. For it was HE who was “NAILED TO THE CROSS” wherein “He triumphed” having been “ABOLISHED” in death the penalty for sin THAT HE, BECAME FOR US.
    That the Law triumphed in the cross, is obvious; that Christ triumphed “in it”, is even more obvious … but “these things [that] are a foreshadow of Christ the Substance of the CHURCH’S “NOURISHMENT” and “GROWTH”, are denied and rejected.


     
    #109 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Apr 30, 2013
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    what is YOUR puropose in keeping the law/ To get saved, remain saved, or what?

    can we please God, and yet not fully keep all the law as you insist on?

    YES, for the Apostle paul said:
    For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,[c] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace

    So you way pits yourself against paul!
     
    #110 Yeshua1, Apr 30, 2013
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    For the saved saint - the born-again experience writes the "Law of God on the heart and mind" Heb 8 (Jer 31:31-33). It is the same law that the Baptist Confession and the Westminster confession speak about - the moral law - the TEN Commandments - but it is written on the heart.

    The Law external only on tables of stone - can only condemn the lost. But that Jer 31:31-33 Law of God - internal written on the heart of the born-again saint will cause that saint to do as Paul stated in Romans 6 - to reject sin (and John says in 1John 3:4 that sin IS transgression of the Law).

    In Romans 8 Paul insists that the born again saints will "By the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh".

    And so in 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the commandments of God"

    And in Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus".

    Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath" in the New Earth - "ALL mankind will come before ME to worship".

    Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God"

    Romans 6 deals with the subject of sinning as a person under Grace.

    How do you read that chapter on that subject?

    I think it has a lot of answers. Let's take a close look at the chapter.

    James 2 argues with the church stating that they need to change modify their behavior so they do not break God's Law and show favoritism to one person over another. "For he who is guilty of breaking one is guilty of breaking all".

    John 2:1 "these things I write to you that you sin not".

    It does not mean that if a saved saint happens to sin - they are lost. It means they cannot embrace a life of determined rebellion against the 1John 3:4-11 law of God. Or as John says in 1John 5:2 - the "Commandments of God"

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #111 BobRyan, Apr 30, 2013
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  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    you can live for god under the burden of keeping the law, to follow the "letter of the law", but Paul tells us that we now live under grace, the spirit of the law, thru the Holy spirit Himself!

    what condemns us not before god? thiose of us found to be 'In Christ", and who are walking in the Holy spirit, that is the 'law" to us now!
     
    #112 Yeshua1, Apr 30, 2013
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I point to scripture

    In Romans 8 Paul insists that the born again saints will "By the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh".

    And so in 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the commandments of God"

    And in Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus".

    Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath" in the New Earth - "ALL mankind will come before ME to worship".

    Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God"

    But you respond


    Clearly I forgot to provide this one more text of scripture.

    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.(NASB)


    1John 5:2-3 KJV
    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    Another section of 1John not mentioned in the popular pulpits today -but certainly well affirmed in the Baptist Confession of faith in 1689, by C. H. Spurgeon in the 19th century, and also by D.L. Moody and today by R.C. Sproul and Andy Stanley and others.

    No wonder Christ could say in Matt 5 that whosoever teaches others to ignore the least of God's Commandments is considered least in heaven. We can all thank God that these baptist sources above were more willing to embrace the Ten Commandments from Eden as given to Adam - until this very day as still applicable to the saints. (Rather than toss the Ten Commandments out the window.)

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #113 BobRyan, Apr 30, 2013
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  14. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    You expressed this well, beautiful and truthfully, Bob Ryan.

    Reading again "in 1John 5:2 - the "Commandments of God"," I wondered, could it be seen as 'The Law of Faith'?

     
    #114 Gerhard Ebersoehn, May 1, 2013
  15. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    This is for Bob or any of the ones carrying the banner for the SDA and similar groups. It is just a question as I do not know the answer. The other group that comes here and constantly needles the Baptist beliefs is the RCC, and they believe anyone outside their church system is not saved. What does your denomination say about that subject? Are Baptists who absolutely do not believe that some of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still active, or in no way believes that Saturday is the day set aside for the Lord, about our spiritual destiny?

    If I agreed with every premise of the RCC, I would not be one for that reason alone. Our denomination does not believe that, and neither do the mainline Protestant denominations.
     
    #115 saturneptune, May 1, 2013
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    At no point have I ever stated that no one outside of the the Seventh-day Adventist church is saved. In fact one of the primary leaders in the Seventh-day Adventist church has stated clearly

    "    [FONT=&quot]And in what religious bodies are the GREATER part of the followers of Christ now to be found? Without doubt, in the various churches professing the Protestant faith. [/FONT]" GC 383

    It is I who affirm the Batpist Confession of Faith on the very points where Baptists here are keeping to deafening silence. It is I who find it odd that there are no Baptists here willing to step up to the plate. I should think one or two Baptists even here would be in favor of it.

    The Baptist Confession of faith affirmed by C.H. Spurgeon

    ================================= Quote
    19. The Law of God
    1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

    2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN Commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

    3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
    http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm#part24

    ==================== End quote

    God said "Remember the Sabbath day to Keep it Holy" Ex 20:8

    God said "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

    "Do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31

    "What matters is KEEPING the Commandments" 1Cor 7:19

    "What then shall we SIN because we are under grace and not under law? God forbid!" Romans 6.

    The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God" and the "Commandments of God are not a burden" 1John 5:2-3.

    Under the NEW Covenant - of Jer 31:31-33 the "LAW of God is written on the mind and on the heart" Hebrews 8.

    The Holy Spirit "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16:8-16 instead of tossing the Word of God - the TEN Commandments out the window.

    No wonder then that the Baptist Confession of Faith, C.H. Spurgeon, D.L. Moody, Andy Stanley, R.C. Sproul accept this Bible teaching.

    How "odd" that some here call this agreement "attacking baptists"!

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #116 BobRyan, May 1, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2013
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I believe so for the saved saint.

    John says it is "not burdensome" in 1John 5:2-3.

    This can only be true for the one under the New Covenant.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #117 BobRyan, May 1, 2013
  18. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    You did everything but answer the question. That is fine, because your arguments are baseless. You have nothing in common with Baptists, the Baptist faith, or our F and Ms. The difference between our two denominations is the same difference as between the Lord and the Pharisees, with the Pharisees being on your side.

    Christ had many argumentments with the Pharisees about the Sabbath.
     
    #118 saturneptune, May 1, 2013
  19. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Yes, and they with Christ. Up till this moment as you argue with Christ about the Sabbath.

    WHY? Because you do not like Christ's Sabbath He is Lord of? That's just too bad! Because it's not in vogue? That's just too inconceivable!
     
    #119 Gerhard Ebersoehn, May 1, 2013
  20. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Who pits himself against Paul? Shucks!
     
    #120 Gerhard Ebersoehn, May 1, 2013
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