What did Jesus leave behind when He took on human form?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by covenant, Apr 10, 2005.

  1. covenant

    covenant
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am interested in how others take these verses.

    Also whether or not he will have to do the same thing upon returning to earth for his 1,000 year reign of an earthly kingdom as is taught regarding the Pre-mill position.


    [​IMG]
     
  2. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,181
    Likes Received:
    326
    One thing is for sure, He laid aside His glory because in the Gospel of John:

    John 17
    4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
    5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    HankD
     
  3. Paul33

    Paul33
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2004
    Messages:
    2,434
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think Jesus laid aside the use of some of his attributes as God without giving up his attributes as God. As a human being, he seems to have voluntarily given up the use of his attribute of omnipresecnece. He could use it by separating from his human body, but he doesn't seem to do that.

    Jesus is still fully God, but limited by a human body.
     
  4. exscentric

    exscentric
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2004
    Messages:
    4,253
    Likes Received:
    16
    No reason for Him to give up the use of, or change in any way to rule over the millennium.
     
  5. covenant

    covenant
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    0
    exscentric,
    Could you elaborate on what you mean when you say there is "no reason for Him to give up the use of,.."

    ...."the use of what?"

    ...."no reason for Him to "change in any way to rule over the millennium?"

    If he He returns to earth to rule in Jerusalem for 1,000 years, what "form" will He have to take to do that? Take on a human form again like he did at His birth? Or, as the Spirit form when he ascended?
     
  6. exscentric

    exscentric
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2004
    Messages:
    4,253
    Likes Received:
    16
    Not sure "spirit form" is accurate, but you are correct that He will decend as He ascended.

    "use of" related to the post before mine and my mention of change in any way related to the passage you quoted originally.
     
  7. covenant

    covenant
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    0
    1Pe 3:18 For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit;

    "Spirit form" was a term used because the disciples "saw" something with their eyes because He was visible to them for 40 days.

    Paul 33, I believe, was speaking only of Christ as before his crucifixion when He took on human form by being manifested in the flesh.

    Was not that a "one time occurance?" There would be no reason for Him to appear again "in the flesh." The only reason He had to appear in human form that time was for the fulfillment of the sacrifice for sin.
     
  8. exscentric

    exscentric
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2004
    Messages:
    4,253
    Likes Received:
    16
    Then you hold that He is no longer human?

    Yes Paul 33 was speaking of Christ before his crucifixion, but not sure he meant "ONLY" in particular.
     
  9. covenant

    covenant
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    0
    He is no longer in human flesh.

    Heb 10:5 Therefore when He comes into the world, He says, "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but You have prepared a body for Me.

    1Pe 3:18 For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit;

    1Pe 3:22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into Heaven, where the angels and authorities and powers are being subjected to Him.


    The broader question is that "How can Christ return to earth again in human flesh? He can't! That was only a one time event and for one purpose only!

    [ April 10, 2005, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: covenant ]
     
  10. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    Christ is in his resurrected body -- he is not in spirit form in the sense of being without a body, and he did not ascend that way. He bodily resurrected in a glorifed body which had substance and he will return in the same body. After the resurrection, his body still bore the scars of the crucifixion; He showed the scars to Thomas. He also showed that he had a material body, and He ate.

     
  11. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,181
    Likes Received:
    326
    A "spiritual" resurrection of Jesus Christ is the JW view of the resurrection. Jesus arose bodily as Marcia has pointed out from the Scripture.

    If Jesus did not rise bodily then what happened to His physical body?
    Is it still in the tomb?

    Where did it go?

    HankD
     
  12. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Christ is still in human form as Acts 1:9-11 shows. It was a bodily ascension. There is no reason to think that he left that.

    In the kenosis, he gave up the independent use of his divine attributes. He won't do that when he returns in his kingdom.
     
  13. covenant

    covenant
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    0
    To all,

    Let's agree that Marcia put into words a little better the point that His "body" before the cross was "different" than after the resurrection. We're all saying the same thing about the body that he appeared in to the believers.

    Covenant..."He is no longer in human flesh.

    Marcia..."Christ is in his resurrected body -- he is not in spirit form in the sense of being without a body, and he did not ascend that way. He bodily resurrected in a glorifed body which had substance and he will return in the same body. After the resurrection, his body still bore the scars of the crucifixion; He showed the scars to Thomas. He also showed that he had a material body, and He ate."

    HankD... "A spiritual resurrection of Jesus Christ is the JW view of the resurrection. Jesus arose bodily..." (Nowhere did I say it was a "spiritual resurrection without a body of some "type.")

    When Christ returns on the Last Day He "will come in the same way as [they] saw him go into heaven." (Acts 1:11)

    [​IMG]
     
  14. covenant

    covenant
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    0
    To continue with the above, and hopefully agreed upon, it still does not answer the question concerning His presence during a 1,000 year earthly reign as is the Pre-mil view.

    With the A-Mill view, Christ does not, and cannot reside alonside sinful man in His now "glorified state."

    The only time that the Godhead "communed" with humans on a one-on-one basis and in the same manner, was when God communed alongside Adam and Eve before they sinned. After they sinned, they were banned from the Garden of Eden and the presence of God. (Gen 2:22-24) Nowhere in the Old Testament did he commune, in the same manner, directly with sinfull man "after" the fall of Adam and Eve. Any miraculous appearances after that and before His birth were in "veiled" forms.

    When He came to earth, by taking upon Himself a human body, it was for the purpose of presenting it as a sacrifice for sin and to fulfill the promise in the Garden of Eden - and that is all that body was for. And it was the one and the only time in history that he appeared visibly to sinful man.

    In absolutely NONE of the post-resurrection appearances did He present Himself to ANY unbelievers whatsoever. It did not happen then and it simply does not make sense with the view that He would appear on earth for 1,000 years to live and commune again with sinful man in His glorified body! It is a contradiction of what scripture says.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,181
    Likes Received:
    326
    OK, I wasn't sure from one of your previous posts where you said
    and whether "form" equated to His body.
    That's why I asked the questions concerning the where-abouts of His body, like "where is it?".

    HankD
     
  16. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,181
    Likes Received:
    326
    Genesis 4
    9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
    10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
    11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
    12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
    13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
    14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
    15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
     
  17. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,181
    Likes Received:
    326
    What then is the meaning of Revelation 20?

    Also, God is not bound by your rules, He often has done things which "make no sense" to us.

    If He wants to come and live on earth for 1000 years and commune with sinful man in His glorified body then He can and will do it whether it makes sense to us or not.

    HankD
     
  18. covenant

    covenant
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    0
    HankD,

    Good Hank! But scripture does not say that it was in the same manner. God spoke to man quite often after that, but there was a separtion that existed after the fall. Before the fall, that non-separation communal existence was the blessing of being in the Garden of Eden. After the fall, God immediately starts to withdraw Himself from them where scripture says;
    The complete withdrawal did not occur until they were banished from his presence entirely and after the promise of the redeemer and judgement of the serpent was made.

    Scripture, A-mills believe, that God will not commune again on a one-on-one basis until they have been cleansed of that sin, the earth cleansed by the renewed Heaven and Earth, and are back in the Garden of Eden/New Jerusalem.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,181
    Likes Received:
    326
    A technicality IMO. [​IMG]

    You are correct in your technicality however when Christ does rule and reign here on earth for 1000 years it will not be in the same manner as with pre-fall Adam and Eve but He will rule with a "rod of iron".

    HankD
     
  20. covenant

    covenant
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    0
    HankD,

    Is it not the Pre-Mill doctrine that the temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem for a literal earthly reign of a 1,000 years and with Christ in it ruling "with a rod of iron" as you say?

    Is it not that doctrine that says that sinful man will still be on earth during those 1,000 years?
     

Share This Page

Loading...