What Did Jesus mean By "All Those that The Father Gives Unto Me?"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Apr 19, 2011.

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  1. JesusFan

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    He also said that the Apostles did NOT choose Him, but that he did them...

    he would receive all those that the Father would give Him, and eternally keep them...

    Is this a direct reference by the Lord to divine election of God?
     
  2. jbh28

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    You know, it might be time to stop all the Calvinism threads. I think we need something else to talk about. Just saying...
     
  3. Van

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    Agreed. Pointing out that Calvinism is false doctrine is like shooting fish in a barrel. God did not predestine everything. No Calvinist will dispute this because to do so advocates closed theism, turning God into a monster.
     
  4. JesusFan

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    i am ALL for discussing other things regarding the Christian faith/doctrines

    ANY ideas for what can be discussed next instead?
     
  5. Skandelon

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    Yes, the divine election of the apostles, the remnant of Israel appointed individually by God to carry the message of redemption to the world. Read John 17 and notice the distinction in Jesus' prayer for those the father had given him (the twelve) and those who will believe in their message. Proof that God has individually selected and effectually called his authoritative messengers to be His ambassadors of reconciliation for the whole world doesn't prove that he individually selects some to believe their message to the neglect of all others.
     
  6. jbh28

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    One day you'll read my response on that and stop pretending that I didn't answer it.....but I'm glad you agreed on too many threads :) I'm sure we all have something else to talk about. The Bible has A LOT more than Calvinism
     
  7. Skandelon

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    Start your own thread if you don't wish to engage in a particular topic. No one has effectually caused you to respond to this thread, or has He? :smilewinkgrin:
     
  8. jbh28

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    pants on women, music, movies :D LOL

    Maybe, how should we handle a situation where a person comes to us with help, but that person is unsaved. Let's say that are an alcoholic and come to you for help. How should we help them. Maybe this would be a good thread to start.
     
  9. jbh28

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    Yes, I was forced against my will. I want to play my PS3, but I was predestined to do this instead. :D



    ok...I'll go play in my own thread! :)
     
  10. Van

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    ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVES ME

    Understanding the biblical concept of the phrase “all that the Father gives Me” requires careful study of several passages of scripture. First lets look at John 6.

    In verse 37, Jesus says (NASB) “All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.” This verse says if a person is given to Christ, it results in salvation 100% of the time; all given come and are not cast out. Second, the sequence seems clear, first if God gives someone they either simultaneously come to Christ or after they are given, they come to Christ, but clearly folks do not come to Christ before they are given.

    In verse 44, Jesus says (NASB) “No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws Him; and I will raise Him up on the last day.” This verse says two things, no one can come to Jesus unless God draws him, and everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved, for Jesus will raise him up on the last day.

    Putting the two verses together, we get (1) God draws people, (2) some or all those drawn are given to Christ, (3) all those given in this manner come to Jesus, and (4) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

    In verse 45, Jesus says (NASB) “It is written in the prophets, “And they shall all be taught of God.” Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.”
    So everyone who comes to Jesus must first have heard of God, which I think refers to hearing the gospel message. Then, everyone that comes to Jesus must have learned of God from God’s message. I think this learning refers to accepting and trusting in Christ.

    Putting all three verses from John 6 together we get, (1) God draws people with the gospel message, (2) some of these hear (understand) the message and believe (having learned), (3) God gives those whose faith He credits as righteousness to Christ, (4) all those God gives in this matter are spiritually placed in Christ (arrive in Christ), and (5) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

    So based on these verses from John 6 we have a working hypothesis of the meaning of the phrase, “all that the Father gives to Me.”

    In verse 65, Jesus says (NASB) “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to me, unless it has been granted Him from the Father.” If God has hardened the hearts of some, they will not understand the gospel and they will be unable to learn from it, is how I understand the verse - using “granted” to mean allowed. If God hardens a person’s heart, like Judas in this passage, then it has not been granted to come to Jesus. Judas certainly heard the message but just as certainly did not learn from it and put his faith in Christ. So it appears to me that this verse is consistent with my working hypothesis.

    In John 12:32, Jesus says (NASB) “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” Christ crucified is the center of the gospel message, so this is somewhat consistent with the working hypothesis. However, to fit, I must understand “all men” to refer to all men who have heard and understood the gospel, because the message of Christ being “lifted up” would not it seems to me to draw folks who either did not hear or understand the gospel. In Matthew 13, the parable of the four soils, Jesus explains that some people have hardened themselves, rather than being hardened by God for His purpose such as Judas or Pharaoh, and it appears to me that those who have hardened their heart to the degree they cannot understand the gospel, will not be drawn by the gospel, Matt. 13:19. Clearly my understanding requires a difference between being drawn to Jesus (John 12:32) and coming to Jesus (John 6:37; 44 and 45).

    In order to accept this view as consistent with all scripture, one must accept that to be drawn means understanding a persuasive argument and accepting it to some degree, although not necessarily making a full commitment, i.e. the other soils of Matthew 13.
    An alternate view, which I think mistaken, is to view draw as meaning to be compelled irresistibly. Matthew 13 clearly indicated folks could be attracted to the gospel, i.e. receive it with joy, and yet not believe from the heart or with all their heart.

    In John 10:29 (NASB) Jesus says, “My Father who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” First, the “them” refers back to verse 28 and to the ones Christ gives eternal life. In verse 28 Jesus says no one can snatch them out of His (Christ’s) hand and in verse 29 Jesus says no one can snatch them out of His Father’s hand. Thus when we are spiritually placed in Christ, we are in both the Father’s and the Son’s hand, saved forever. To make this clear, Jesus says, (verse 30) “I and My Father are one.” This verse, too, is consistent with the working hypothesis.

    In John 17:4 we see that God gives other things to Christ, in this case His work to accomplish, and so we need to look at context to verify that people are being given to Christ for the purpose of their salvation, as opposed to something or someone being given to Christ for some other purpose.

    In John 17:6 we see that the Father has given some individuals to Christ, but the purpose was for them to receive the words God had given to Christ (verse 8). We see that these men were given to Christ out of the world, so out of the “kosmos of man” God gave these to Christ for a purpose. These men believed God had sent Jesus, that Jesus was the Messiah.

    In verses 9 – 12 we see that Jesus asks in behalf of these men, His disciples, for God to keep them in His name, indicating they were believers and Jesus is asking God to protect their faith, sanctify them in truth so to speak. Jesus says not one of them perished, but the son of Perdition, again indicating these were not given for the purpose of salvation. Jesus then says, verse 20, that He is not asking in behalf of the disciples only, but also for those who will believe in Christ through the message Christ gave them from God.

    In John 17:24 (NASB) Jesus says, "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.” This also refers to Christ’s disciples given to Christ for the purpose of passing on the gospel to the world. To be with Me, again refers to being with Christ as a faithful servant, rather than apart from Christ spreading less than the pure gospel.

    If we back up a bit and return to verse 17:6, we see that in these verses, the Father is giving to the Son people who belong to the Father. This begs the question, in what way did the disciples belong to the Father before they were given to the Son. All but Judas were “of God” meaning under the influence of God, looking for the Messiah, trusting in God’s word (Old Testament revelation). From this I conclude Jesus is referring to the eleven, Jesus was not praying in behalf of Judas, and therefore Jesus is saying they belonged to God because they believed in God and were committed to following God as best they knew how.

    1 John 5:1 says (NASB), “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. Based on the Greek tenses, this verse says that everyone who believes in the present has been born of God in the past. It is God who determines whether or not a person “believes” (Romans 4:5). John 1:12-13 says whoever believes in Christ is given by God the right to become children of God, born by the will of God. So if we put those three verses together we get (3) God gives 100% of those whose faith He credits as righteous to Christ, and (5) everyone that arrives in Christ in this manner is then born again by the will of God and saved forever

    In John 3:3 scripture teaches we must have been born again to see the kingdom of God. In John 3:5 scripture teaches we must be born of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.

    In summary, I have found no passage of scripture that conflicts with this understanding of John 6:37 - (1) God draws people with the gospel message, (2) some of these hear (understand) the message and believe (having learned), (3) God gives those whose faith He credits as righteousness to Christ, (4) all those God gives in this matter are spiritually placed in Christ (arrive in Christ), and (5) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

    Steps 2 and 3 comprise our individual election unto salvation, according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, which says “… God has chosen you from the beginning [of the New Covenant] for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the Truth. And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.” When God chooses to credit our faith as righteousness (Romans 4:5) He then gives us to Christ by spiritually placing us in Christ, thus “all that the Father gives Me” are saved forever.
     
  11. Skandelon

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    Actually, to be accurate, God didn't force you against your will, he CHANGED your will so that you would want to post here. Same is true of the author of the thread, so don't get mad at him, he is just doing what God has effectually predetermined for him to want to do. :)
     
  12. Skandelon

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    Van,

    I love ya bro, but have you heard of "BITE SIZES?" That's a freakin dissertation. :)

    What I did read looked good though....just consider taking a point at a time.
     
  13. Winman

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    The important thing to note is that "giveth me" is shown in the present tense. Most of the MVs say "gives me".

    This shows that the giving and coming happen at the same time, it is not saying these persons were "given" (past tense) in eternity past.

    That "giveth" is shown in the present tense is verified two verses later (vs. 39) where Jesus says he will lose none of those whom his Father "hath given" (past tense). These are those who have been given and who have already come to Jesus.

    So "giveth" in vs. 37 is clearly present tense and shows the giving and coming happen at the same time. The giving is the work of the Father, the coming is the response of the believer.

    I believe those the Father "giveth" (present tense), are those who have heard, learned, and been taught by the Father through the scriptures or the preaching of the scriptures (vs.45). Faith comes by hearing the word of God, and all those that hear and believe shall come to Jesus.

    This is shown by Paul when he asks, "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed, and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?" (Rom 10:14)

    No person can call on Jesus unless they sincerely believe in him, and no person can believe in Jesus unless they have heard of him through the word of God.

    In the exact same manner, no man can come to Jesus unless he sincerely believes in Jesus, and no man can believe unless he is enabled to have faith through hearing the word of God the Father gives him.
     
    #13 Winman, Apr 19, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 19, 2011
  14. convicted1

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    Okay, I'll bite on this one!!! :)

    Let's take this further than just the one verse(John 6:44), and I believe that I will show you what Jesus really stated here.

    John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

    42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

    43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    I truly believe with all my heart that the ones that "cometh unto Him", are those that were living when Jesus was here in the flesh. IOW, Jesus was speaking "in the now"(present tense), and not future. Now, I believe one must be called/drawed, before they can come, but in this passage in John 6, Jesus was talking of those who would come unto Him while He was in His fleshly body....those who actually saw them with their eyes.....whereas we see Him through faith only now. Now, read this what Jesus said He'd do after He would arise from the grave:

    John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

    After Jesus arose, He is now drawing all those who have been shown their sinful state, but not all those who are drawn, will come. Therefore, only those who put their trust(faith) in Him, will be saved.

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
  15. convicted1

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    Nah, keep'em coming!!! Iron sharpeneth iron, I's says!! LOL!!!
     
  16. convicted1

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    If I have understood this post correctly, you and I are in agreement here. I have no problem with God predestining certain individuals. But for Him to presdestine some to hell, seems to be out of His character. I believe that those who He did predestine, was for good only. People such as Moses, Aaron, Joshua, Samuel, David, etc. But, I do not Jesus chose Judas because God had predestined him to do so, but rather He chose Judas because He knew that Judas would do it. But, that's me........
     
  17. HankD

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    John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.​

    Why must there be a pre-supposition of unconditional election as the cause of the Father giving certain ones to His Son?​

    Wouldn't they come to Jesus directly if they had been unconditionally elected?​

    We don't know the details/criteria of the Father's selection of those to whom He gives to the Son.​

    Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    True, it has primarily to do with "His own will".

    Presumably the root cause of this Trinitarian counsel is the helpless and hopeless estate of each one of us.​

    Personally, I don't believe it has to be portrayed as an excusionary either/or situation (Sovereignty of God, vs. Responsibilty of man) but a meeting of the minds in the present and ongoing time-continuum:​

    Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.​

    HankD​
     
  18. Luke2427

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    Why?

    Is your perspective of God not one of a holy God who hates sin AND SINNERS.
    The Bible is clear on this, btw. If you doubt it, press me.

    Is your perspective of God not one in which he is Sovereign over his creatures and can do with them as he pleases?

    Did you not know that there were many who were foreordained to this condemnation?

    We can say that God may not do this- but we don't get to say God WOULDN'T do it. He is holy and Almighty and Sovereign over ALL and in ALL and through ALL.

    He has every right and there is nothing about his nature that would keep him from damning all those who deserve to be damned.

    He certainly never offered the fallen angels a shot.
    And he certainly knew they were going to rebel.
    And he made them anyway.
    Then when the time came he allowed them to rebel.
    And he intended before he made the first angels to damn those angels that would fall. And he let them fall and damned them just as he intended to do.

    Let your God be the God of the Bible- not one that suits your palate.
     
  19. Luke2427

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    I do. I believe God predestined everything.

    And it does not make god into a monster.

    It is simply what the Bible CLEARLY teaches.
     
  20. convicted1

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    Oh, I agree that God hates sin, but if He hated sinners, then none of us would have ever been saved, period. If He hated us, He would not have chosen His Son to be our propitiation. So, I do believe that God loves the sinner, and not the sins.

    I agree with this, but not to the extreme you do. God is God, God is sovereign, God is all powerful, but He is not a "puppeteer" that "jerks our strings", and by this, we move every move He makes us move.

    Where does it say this? I am not saying it doesn't, but show me where He foreordained some to hell. I have read where some were foreordained, such as Moses and Aaron, Joshua, Jeremiah, the other major and minor prophets, the Apostsles, that I believe were foreordained, but this was to "good" and not evil. I have never read where He foreordained some to hell, though....or at least not to my puny knowledge.

    I agree. Who has ever known the mind of the Lord, and who can be His counsellor........


    Well, Bro. Luke, all of us deserve(d) this damnation. But He sent His Son to set us free from the curse of the Law. It is the believer who will reap the benefits of the cross. But I believe with all that is in me, that He took all sins in His body, and nailed them with Him to the cross. He is the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD, and a special saviour to the believer. So, He left no one out, when He hung, bled, and died on the cross.....they left theirself out by not believing in Him.


    That which I bolded, I have a question for. By stating "He intended", do you mean He foreordained them to do it? I can not go along with that belief if that's what you are saying. I believe that God knew(foreknowledge) they would do it, and for whatever reason why, He allowed it to happen.

    BTW, I don't have to let God be the God of the bible, because He is the God of the bible. But some of the attributes that are being attributed to Him by some on here, seem to go against His very nature and character. God so loved the world...........


    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
    #20 convicted1, Apr 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 22, 2011
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