What Did Jesus mean By "All Those that The Father Gives Unto Me?"

Yea, that's this new liberal crud that says "God hates sin not the sinner".

We need to be deeper than to swallow every little bumper sticker spiritual saying that we see.

That is not in the Bible.

Psalm 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Proverbs 6:These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

19A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

A puppeteer has no where NEAR the control over his creatures that God has over His. So you are right. God is not a puppeteer.

Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

It does not matter that you believe with all that is in you. That has nothing to do with facts.

It does not matter what you FEEL you can go along with.

That is the problem with this nameless theology that so many espouse today. It is all about FEELINGS.

Whether you can bring yourself to go along with it or not it is truth and you are responsible to know it and live by it.

Let YOUR GOD be the the God of the Bible- not the God of bumper sticker theology.

That kind of stuff is fine for babes in Christ. But there comes a point when you need to grow past it and be able to digest the hard truths.

 

I've given you a couple of passages of Scripture that prove that you are wrong on this.

I found a site that noted that this phrase comes from pagan Mahatma Gandhi rather than the Bible.

That ought to be enough.

But here are what some reputable, well respected men of God and commentaries have said on this matter.

AUGUSTINE (354-430, Bishop of Hippo): "For it may be that God hates a person to the degree more mildly, as not to de
stroy him, but whom He destroys He hates the more exceedingly, by how much He punisheth more severely. Now He h
ateth all who work iniquity: but all who speak lies He also destroys." (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Vol.3, p.462)
BROADMAN BIBLE COMMENTARY: "Yahweh takes no pleasure in wickedness and does not dwell with evil (or evil me
n). Insolent, boasting people have no position at all in the presence of Yahweh, who hates all 'doers of sin.' Indeed, Yah
weh will annihilate those who speak deception: He detests the man of bloody deeds and deceits."
F. DELITZSCH : "Of such (sinners - the foolish, and more especially the foolish boasters... such men Jehovah hates: fo
r if He did not hate evil, His love would not be a holy love," ... "And His soul hates the evildoer and him that delights in th
e violence of the strong against the weak. And the more intense this hatred, the more fearful will be the judgments in whi
ch it bursts forth." (Psalms, Vol.5, pp.122,189)
JONATHAN EDWARDS: "The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much in the same way one holds a spider, or som
e loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: His wrath towards you burns like fire: He looks
upon you as worthy of nothing else but to be cast into the fire: He is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in His sight: y
ou are ten thousand times more abominable in His sight than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours." (Sinners In
the Hands of an Angry God, July 8, 1741)
CHARLES G. FINNEY: "The very thing that God hates and disapproves is not the mere event - the thing done in distincti
on from the doer; but it is the doer himself. It grieves and displeases God that a rational moral agent under His governm
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Scriptures and Doctrine :: God hates sin, God hates sinners, & God's love is conditional
ent should array himself against his own God and Father, against all that is right and just in the universe. This is the thin
g that offends God. The sinner himself is the direct and only object of His anger." (The Guilt of Sin, pp.84-85)
THE INTERNATIONAL CRITICAL COMMENTARY: "But the wicked His soul doth hate ... Their treacherous preparation
s...are all observed by Yahweh, and He hates them from His very soul. The soul is the seat of the passion of anger and
hatred, for God as well as for man...therefore, Yahweh is trying the righteous man, and hating His deadly enemies..."
THE INTERPRETER'S BIBLE: "In vs. 5 the verb 'trieth' has its object both the righteous and the wicked, and means nom
ore that the Lord watchfully observes them both and estimates them for what they are, hating the latter and ultimately po
uring His destruction upon them."
LAYMAN'S BIBLE COMMENTARY: "God's Hatred of Evildoers (Psalm 5:4-5)... God is not said to love the sinner and ha
te his sin; He is said to hate both the sinner and his sin. This sounds harsh to modern Christian ears, but thereis truth he
re we dare not overlook."
MATTHEW HENRY'S COMMENTARY: "He is a holy God, and therefore hates them (the sinner), and cannot endure to l
ook upon them; the wicked, and him that loveth violence, His soul hateth... Their pros-perity is far from being an evidenc
e of God's love...their abuse of it does certainly make them objects of His hatred. He hates nothing that He has made, ye
t hates those who have ill-made themselves."
J. VERNON MCGEE: " If you think God is just lovey-dovey, you had better read this (Ps.11:5) and some of the other Ps
alms again. God hates the wicked who hold onto their wickedness... I do not think God loves the devil, I think He hates h
im, and He hates those who have no intention of turning to God. Frankly, I do not like this distinction that I hear today, th
at 'God loves the sinner, but hates the sin.' God has loved you so much that He gave His Son to die for you, but if you p
ersist in your sin, and continue in that sin, you are the enemy of God. And God is your enemy." (Psalms, Vol.1, p.72)
CHARLES H. SPURGEON: "Verse 5 - Note the singular opposition of the two sentences. God hates the wicked, therefor
e in contrast He loves the righteous..." (The Treasury of David, Vol.2, pp.57-58)
AUGUSTUS HOPKINS STRONG : "There is no abstract sin that can be hated apart from the person in whom that sin is
represented and embodies. It is the sinner who is punished, not the sin." (Systematic Theology, p.290f)
JOHN WESLEY (1703-1791, founder of Methodism): "But as for the wicked, God hates them, and will feverishly punish t
hem." (Explanatory Notes Upon the Old Testament, Vol.2, p.1639)

 

Convicted?

Do you still hold that God does not hate sinners?

 

I still hold to what I said, Bro. Luke. But "hate", also means "loves less". So, if God really hates, I mean REALLY HATES sinners, He would not have allowed His Son to be tortured at the hands of wicked men.

Rom. 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Tim. 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

So, I'll take the Word and say that God loves the sinner, just not in the same manner that He does those that belong to Him. In this, He hates sinners, meaning He loves them less than He does those that are His. Does this clear things up??

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

Bro. Luke,

Let me add to this by saying, that I do agree that God hates sinners, He destoyed many who went against His instructions in the OT. The point I was trying to make, is that even when God hated them, He still instructed them in what they should do FIRST, and when they disobeyed, He then gave them the axe.

Isa. 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

25 Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

 

So you don't believe the Bible when it says that God hates all sinners.

The word "hate" in those passages does not mean "love less". Not in any context.

I know what you will want to say here.

You will want to point out that Jesus said we should "hate" our mother, father, etc...

This is a different word and it is used in a different context. It has to do with comparison. How we feel about our loved ones COMPARED to the way we feel about Christ.

And even in that context of comparison "hate" still means hate.

We are to be willing to starve our family to death on a mission field for the sake of Christ.

To any onlooker that would seem like hate.

The texts I provided ARE NOT comparing anything. They are straightforward statements of fact.

Most of us can quote all of these verses from memory. We are familiar with them. Did you think that I had not considered these verses?

None of these verses say that God does not hate sinners.

Here is what they DO say: that God has chosen to place his love upon some of those that he hates in order to save them so that he might bestow and show his grace.

 

I thought John MacArthur's take on this subject might provide some much needed balance to this discourse (despite my disagreement with his soteriology, he doesn't allow hyperism to consume all of his doctrine)

 

I agree with this wholeheartedly and nothing he says contradicts anything I have been saying.

In fact MacArthur affirms that God does indeed hate the wicked with a real hatred and that hatred is a virtue.

God is able at the same time to love them and be saddened at their necessary destruction.

The people many hate the most in this life are people they love.

This situation happens often. A wife who leaves a man. He hates her BECAUSE he loves her. If he did not love her and did not want her back so badly he would not hate her so bitterly for leaving him. He would be glad she left if he did not love her. If he were indifferent his bitterness toward the thought of her would not exist.

He can honestly say, "I would like to smash you face in for what you have done to me," and at the same time he would rush to the emergency room if her face were smashed in an accident.

He honestly feels like he would like to kill her sometimes. Yet he would cry at her funeral.

If man is able to be that complex, certainly God is!

 

Good, I just have a feeling that if I or DHK had said the exact same thing as MacArthur did in his last paragraph that you would have taken issue with it. I'm glad to know you affirm that God sincerely and genuinely loves and calls even the non-elect reprobates to repentance and faith. :thumbsup:

 

Bro. Luke,

Did you not read this passage I posted? Here it is again:

Isa. 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

25 Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

I have heard and read many that state that God's relationship with us is much like a natural father to his child. When they do wrong, you correct them with a switch/belt(or at least mine did, and I love him for loving me enough to correct me when I was doing wrong), and in that chastisement, came love. I know you will state that He does this to those who He has saved, but I do believe this is the way He does all His creation. When I was a sinner, and did things I knew was wrong, He'd come to me and show me I was wrong, and in a "still, low" voice, it seemed like He would say, "why did you do this". I was a sinner, and He loved me enough to send His Son to die for me!! However, I would keep doing the wrong, things, and here would come that "still, low" voice again. In this Isaiah passage, you see where God dealt with them after they cast away the law of the Lord. His hatred was kindled towards them after they did this.

I never meant to say that God hates sinners in the manner that you do, Bro. Luke. If God didn't hate them, He would not have prepared an eternal place of torment for those who rebelled against them. I can find no mention of hell or the lake of fire, until after Lucifer's rebellion against God. But, if people don't do what He wants them to do, then He gives them the axe, and not before.

No Brother, those verses had never entered my mind, to be honest with you.

Agreed!!

I agree, but I do think that God will provide for them in their time of need.

I used these verses to show that God, indeed, does love sinners. If He didn't love sinners, He would have given the axe to Adam and Eve way back in the Garden. It is what we call patience/longsuffering, etc.

Well, at least I can see that you are coming around......J/K Brother. But think about this, if He places His love on those He hates, then how could He have hated them to begin with. I know that God operates completely different than any of us, but ponder on that question, Brother Luke!! Have a Happy Resurrection day!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

I would not have taken exception. I am not a hyper by any means.

I believe the Gospel call is to all and all are responsible to repent and believe the Gospel.

I believe our primary task on this earth is to preach the Gospel to every creature.

So no, I would not have taken exception no matter whose mouth it came from.

Of course by "mouth" I do not literally mean "mouth".

It seems you require those kinds of clarifications.:smilewinkgrin:

 

This is what I am saying, convicted. God has chosen to bestow his love upon those that he hates. This is exactly WHY we call it GRACE.

Respectfully, Willis, this is meaningless. It does not matter what you have heard. This is not an argument.

All of us have read and heard all kinds of things. So what?

Again, "I do believe" is not an argument.

All kinds of people have all kinds of beliefs and MOST of them are damnable.

Saying, "I do believe" is meaningless.

Prove it in Scripture. That is the only way it will matter. Otherwise it is a waste of your time.

I'd be careful with this "progressive revelation. If God is still speaking new words today- we have a problem.

What those words in your brain amounted to were thoughts of your own.

Again, that you can find no mention of when the lake of fire was constructed is not an argument.

If God did not intend for the impenitent to be in hell they would not be there.

And since he personally has them all cast into the lake of fire we can certainly deduce that he intends for them to be there.

Once again, who cares what you think? That is not an argument.

In order to make a point you have to make a sound argument not just say- I think...

Most thoughts that men think are evil. That is why we should NEVER say "I think" when it comes to the things of God. We run the risk of blasphemy.

When it comes to God just say- His word says...

Yes, he loves them and hates them.

God is able at the same time to love them and be saddened at their necessary destruction.

The people many hate the most in this life are people they love.

This situation happens often. A wife who leaves a man. He hates her BECAUSE he loves her. If he did not love her and did not want her back so badly he would not hate her so bitterly for leaving him. He would be glad she left if he did not love her. If he were indifferent his bitterness toward the thought of her would not exist.

He can honestly say, "I would like to smash you face in for what you have done to me," and at the same time he would rush to the emergency room if her face were smashed in an accident.

He honestly feels like he would like to kill her sometimes. Yet he would cry at her funeral.

If man is able to be that complex, certainly God is!

Well you answered your on question there, didn't you?

You too!

 

So we can agree, at least in part, that God does indeed love sinners??

So you don't think that there is a comparison between God loving His creation and you loving your child?? I do agree that you would not put your child in a hot oven, regardless what they did, but there are some comparisons. God chastens those who He loves, and you chasten your children because you love them....so there are some parallels.

I have proved MANY THINGS with scripture in other threads, and you won't accept them!! Why?? Because if it isn't soaked, drenched, oozing with Calvinism/DoG "twang", then its the wrong interpretation.

So, you think that God doesn't "talk" to sinners, when He is drawing them?? Amazing!! I knew EVERY TIME that it was Him talking to me, because when I did something wrong, He let me know it. BTW, those weren't thoughts of my own. My own thoughts consisted of what "meanness" I could get into.

Baloney!!! God did not intend for them to be in hell no more than I do!! He saw in His foresight/foreknowledge what would happen, and for whatever reason, He allowed it to happen. But to place the blame solely in His lap, is further than most on here will go.

God so loved the world, world means world, and sinners are in the world, so God loves sinners. But, there comes a time when He will cast them into hell because of what they did, and not what He did.

We will just have to disagree, Brother Luke!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

Certainly. He loves all sinners he intends to save tremendously.

He loves all men in general with a much lesser love.

See you miss the point. It does not matter what I THINK or what you THINK.

That is no argument.

You have no right to take that passage that speaks of God chastening those that he loves and apply it to the lost. That is the kind of sloppy hermeneutics that is so DANGEROUS!

If that passage applies to everyone then it loses ALL of it's specialness to God's true children.

You don't get to do that, and you need to approach the Scriptures with a great deal more fear and trembling. If they are not handled EXTRAORDINARILY carefully, if they are abused like you do here they can be TREMENDOUSLY dangerous.

This is why theological training is so important before one goes to posting for thousands of impressionable people to read.

It is this kind of thing that makes me see the benefit in demanding an educated clergy.

Not only is this not true and unfair- it is simply BULL.

This is progressive revelation. It is THE deadliest thing about every cult on earth.

It has seeped into Baptist life because about a hundred years ago we began to abandon theological training for ignorant backwater, experience based religion.

I did not place the blame SOLELY in God's lap.

But even YOU with this new nameless theology that has become so popular have to admit that God intends to cast into hell all those who do not repent and trust Christ for salvation.

If you don't believe that I am not sure that you can even rightly call yourself ORTHODOX!

 

Well, I'm glad you have made the choice to believe that. I mean, I'm glad God made that choice for you to believe that. I seems you require those kinds of qualifications. :smilewinkgrin:

 

There was a time when Calvinism/Arminianism had its own forum. I wish that time had never ended.

 

Well said Willis, well said. Ignore the claims of "bull" and other such nonsense. Blessings to you on this wonderful day.

 

Calv1: We are sinners, yet God loves us only because He knew that He would make us righteous through His son.

Calv1: Jesus uses the Father/Son analogy many times to show the comparison with how He treats us, that is His adopted children only.

Calv1: God talks to us anytime we want in His revelation of the bible. Every word needs to be taken into account to honor Him. Ignoring anything out of our own traditions or emotions is the same as a baby insisting it's safe to put their fingers in a light socket, even though we say it's dangerous.

Calv1: People are going to Hell because it's God's will, I would suggest you read Romans 9 in the original Greek. Whether God knew that billions would end up in Hell and He was helpless to stop it, or whether He ordained it makes no difference in your accusation of God.

People for some reason don't seem to understand that God is not obligated to grant Grace, and if He withholds grace can anyone call Him into account? In addition, doing a good act can result in others doing evil. Think about when you witness, doesn't that cause others to do evil?

Calv1: That sounds reasonable, but it's not biblical. World means "Cosmos" in the Greek, and is used in at least 6 different ways in the New Testament, certainly not always meaning "Every single person without exception".

Calv1: Thanks guys!

 

Yea, in fact it almost NEVER means "every single person" in Scripture or in ANY literature or ANY speech.

All people use this terminology to speak of people all over the world rather than every single person on earth.

The whole WORLD knows that!

Of course when I say "All people" I do not mean EVERY SINGLE PERSON, and when I say "whole world" I do not mean "every single person". Why? Because we almost NEVER mean "every single person" when we say "all" and "whole world".

It is, frankly, rather ignorant, imo, to try to force the "alls" and "whole worlds" of Scripture to mean what in "all" languages over the "whole world" they almost NEVER mean.

Good stuff!

Glad to have you on baptistboard, Cal1!

 

You might as well lose your moniker, for others won't believe this to be God's word!

In John 3:16, it says literally in the Greek, "For God so loved the cosmos, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that the believing ones would not perish, but have everlasting life'

Seems to be the quote of the day. Anyone wish to challenge God's word in the original language???

Then it says that "he who believes not, the WRATH (That is the hatred, the absolute full orbered judgemet of God) ABIDES WITH HIM. Yet these people say God loves all?