What do 5 point Calvinist have to say about this question?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by romanbear, Apr 28, 2003.

  1. romanbear

    romanbear
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    Hi everyone;
    Do Calvinist Believe that Jehovah's Witnesses are saved? because they study Gods word and believe in Jesus. They even pray in His name.

    How about Catholics,or the branch dividians. You may Laugh at my questions but I'm serious. The reason I ask is that you all seem to be convinced that men who seek after God are of the elect weather they know it or not.

    These sects or should I say Cults all have men and women in them who diligently seek after truth and God.In fact I have seldom seen any as zealous as the JW's What say you
    Romanbear
     
  2. Frogman

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    I have worked with Jehovah's Witnesses and unless I am mistaken, they refuse Christ as the Son of God don't they? If this is true, then they are not saved, sincerety is not salvation. This does not mean that they cannot be brought out of this bondage to darkness, in God's Will. But as things would so stand now, they are not believers.

    Hope this is clear enough as to what I believe, if not let me know and I will try to make it plainer.

    God Bless.
    Bro.Dallas
     
  3. Yelsew

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    What happened to believing in Jehovah God? Did Abraham believe in Jesus or was it the Lord God Jehovah?
     
  4. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    They are not seeking after the true God, which is evident by their rejection of Christ. All men have a knowledge of God and seek after some form of God or a supreme being. That does not make them believers. They are unsaved if they reject Christ.

    Yelsew, In the OT, people responded to the revelation they had.
     
  5. romanbear

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    Hi Larry; [​IMG]
    What about mormons then. They acknowledge Christ as the son of God.

    My point is that not all who claim to be Christians are actually Christians. But never the less are spiritually able to seek God.

    This is why Calvinist are mistaken when they Claim that man cannot seek God on his own.

    Deu 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find [him], if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

    Romanbear [​IMG]
     
  6. Kiffin

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    I don't think this really has anything to do with the Calvinist-Arminian debate. Even orthodox Arminians will admit that men can only come to Christ through the Holy Spirit. I have never read any classic Arminian author who believed that kinda extemist version of Free will.

    JW's, Mormons, Oneness Pentecostals, Muslims etc..for one thing are not seeking after the Biblical God who is the Holy Trinity. No doubt there are Christians in the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches because there are some fundamentals regarding the faith - The most important - The Holy Trinity. They are saved however because they have faith in Christ not because of the sacramental salvation taught.

    That text actually is addressed to God's people Israel and is not referring to unconverted people so it really doesn't apply...though no one denies all people are commanded to come to Christ but we know they come because they are drawn not because of some hyper free will.

    I once again do not see this as a Calvinist vs. Arminian issue...maybe a Calvinist/Arminian vs. Pelagain discussion. :(
     
  7. aa0310

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    I cannot accep that it is at all possible for ANYONE to be able to seek after God on their own! This is impossible, as it is the natural thing for all humans to rebel against a Holy God, because of their sinful human natures. It is ONLY when the Holy Spirit does a work of grace in their heart, especially through the hearing of the Word of God (see Romans 10:9-21), that they will be able to come to Christ in faith. It is not at all possible for someone to get up one morning and say "I have decided that today I am going to accept Christ", on their own! This will make salvation as coming from within the person, and not from God! We simply CANNOT save ourselves! Salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit, and even to life the Christian life can ONLY be done by the grace of God through His Holy Spirit. I cannot continue in the faith on my own, as the heart, which is evil, will want to rebel if left on its own.
     
  8. tyndale1946

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    First of all I like Romanbears question... I will answer it as a Primitive Baptist would answer it. Also if being consistant with Calvinism and the doctrine of election... Then are not these groups also Gods children?... Why do they believe in God even though their understanding of him is in error?

    When God cut off Israel because of unbelief did not God graft the Gentiles in?... If Israels belief in God came from God... Did not the Gentiles belief also come from him or did they believe it on their own? Behold the goodness and serverity of God.

    You all know I lost my wife... If in my grief I was to lash out at God in rebellion and sin and drink it to the dregs... Would I cease to be one of Gods own in election?... Some would go so far as to say... Well he wasn't a child of God anyway his action prove he really belonged to the devil.

    Do we believe what we claim we do?... I know I do and will be consistent... If I'm consistently wrong so be it... God is the judge not men for all of us. Primitive Baptist have another trait we do not point the finger... Because brethren it points both ways... Gods finger points to Jesus and his suffering on the cross for all of his children no matter what label they wear... The only question is this... Did God cast away his people that he foreknew?... "GOD FORBID" ... Brother Glen [​IMG] & [​IMG] Sister Charlotte [​IMG]
     
  9. Dan Todd

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    Yelsew asked:
    Salvation has always been by grace through faith. Adam and Eve were promised a Redeemer - Gen 3:15 - they believed by faith.

    Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. What did Abraham believe? That God would provide Himself a lamb.

    Old Testament saints looked forward to the coming Redeemer - Since Christ - we look back to the Redeemer that came.

    Faith in the promised Redeemer - or faith in the provided Redeemer - in either case the Redeemer is One and the Same - the Lord Jesus Christ - the Eternal Son of God - the Second Person of the Trinity.

    All planned before the foundations of the earth were ever laid. Amen - if it were not so - none of us would ever come to faith in the Risen, Glorified Savior.
     
  10. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    This might not be entirely true, since they have an interesting doctrine of Christology. But when you look at what they believe, it most certainly is not Scripture.

    But Rom 3 says that they do not seek God; 2 Cor 4 says that they are blinded; etc. That they know God exists is not a question; they do. And many seek after an idea of God but they will not seek the biblical God apart from the Holy Spirit. That is why there are false religions today. Man wants a God of his own making.

    Scripture is the one that made this claim first.

    This is most certainly true. The problem is that these people are not seeking the "Lord your God." They are seeking something else.
     
  11. romanbear

    romanbear
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    Larry;
    A quote from you;
    -------------------------------------
    This is most certainly true. The problem is that these people are not seeking the "Lord your God." They are seeking something else.
    -------------------------------------

    My reply;
    These are seeking God, the one and only. True they maybe deceived, but seeking God none the less. I was wondering if I would ever get the right reply. You see if you were to ask any of them if they were seeking the God of the Bible. They would be more than happy to tell you yes. Most certainly if you ask if they were seeking any other God other than the one and only they would deny it in truth.

    At some point in there lives they may have heard the true Gospel. Then along comes the deceiver and whala!, you have people who are seeking God,contrary to what Calvinist believe. But the deceiver comes in wearing his sheep's clothing stealing the truth away. Your right, they are not seeking the right God, but not because they aren't trying. Some seek with all there hearts because we all need God. Those who seek God with all there hearts and souls will find Him. The Bible says so and I believe it. Obviously you do to. So why do Calvinist say we can't seek God on our own?. Remember "seeking God" and "comming to God" are two different things. I agree that no one can come to God unless drawn by him. Obviously if one seeks the Lord with all his heart and soul then God will draw him.
    Romanbear
     
  12. romanbear

    romanbear
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    Kiffin; [​IMG]
    A quote from you;
    ------------------------------------------
    The most important - The Holy Trinity. They are saved however because they have faith in Christ not because of the sacramental salvation taught.
    ------------------------------------------
    The holy trinity is not a saving knowledge. Catholics look to the church for there salvation. Not to Jesus alone. Belief in the trinity does not save anyone nor does the church. Only faith in Jesus Christ is saving. Believing that He is the Son of God and that God the Father raised Him from the dead. That He died for our sins. Repenting of our sins. These are what Saves you. You can believe in the trinity and it alone is not enough to save you. The most important is that God draws you.

    Cathloics are as misled as the mormons, JW's, or any other cult. They almost have it, but are saddly decieved and led in a different direction. Catholics worship Mary and the apostles,by praying to them. This is having other Gods before Him.
    Romanbear [​IMG]
     
  13. romanbear

    romanbear
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    Hi tyndale; [​IMG]
    First let me say that I didn't know you lost your wife. I don't read every post on the board and although I read most of yours I must of missed it. You have my condolences. I don't know how long you were married to her but I've had my wife for 40 years this September. I Love my wife as I'm sure you have Loved yours. Just remember that we are all just a passin' through and life here is but a wisp in the wind. Be comforted in knowing she's waiting for you on the other shore.
    Keep looking up.
    Romanbear [​IMG]
     
  14. Pastor Larry

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    But Scripture says they are not so I think that ought to be the final opinion on this matter.

    But he will not seek the true God until God draws him. I think you are confusing the "concept of God" with the "true God." Man is seeking for the former. He is not seeking for the latter. To seek for a supreme being is a part of the image of God in man. To reject the true God, as all men do, is a part of sin. THe only thing that overcomes that is the effectual drawing of God.
     
  15. romanbear

    romanbear
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    Larry;
    You know that I have shown you truth. Yet you refuse to accept it. You refer men to Romans 3 for scripture to back up what you believe. When there are many more scriptures to indicate the opposite.

    Man has been seeking God for a long time you take one verse and claim that this is the state of man. Man cannot seek God. Romans 3:11 was directed at those who were indeed not seeking God at the time. Notice it doesn't say that man cannot seek God. To me it appears you are adding to the scripture, things that are clearly not there.

    Here are 12 verses that say man can and does seek God.
    Due 4:29, Isa 25:29, 1Ch22:19, 28:9, 2Ch 11:16, 15:12, 31:21, 34:3, Ezr 4:2, 8:21, Job 5:8, 8:5.
    Seems to me that just these would be enough to convince you, but if you need more let me know.
    There are several times when there was no one seeking God in the Bible, but that doesn't mean that man can't.
    You say effectual call but there is no effectual call in the Bible , This is just another made up term like unconditional election, or Limited atonement, All who are saved was saved by an effectual call and the calls where no one was saved,was not because it wasn't effectual, it was because man rejected the offer.Plain and simple
    Romanbear
     
  16. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Where did you do this? It hasn't been here.

    Romans 3 discusses the state of all men, Jew and Greek alike. That is the point. It is not the condition of some men. That is the truth, as you like to say.

    You are wrong. I have added nothing.

    These verses do not contradict my point in the least. They correlate perfectly well with what I believe.

    [qutoe]You say effectual call but there is no effectual call in the Bible , This is just another made up term like unconditional election, or Limited atonement, All who are saved was saved by an effectual call and the calls where no one was saved,was not because it wasn't effectual, it was because man rejected the offer.Plain and simple[/QUOTE]"Effectual" call cannot be ineffectual. That is a contradiction in your terms. The term "effectual call" has a valid biblical base and it would be worth your time to find out what it is. There are many passages in Scripture that talk about the call and describe it as being the difference between the saved and the unsaved. In other words, there is something about the saved that make them "The called" while the unsaved are not described by the same word. That is, as you like to say, the truth. You have simply failed to study this issue. You have believed the word of men over the word of God.
     
  17. romanbear

    romanbear
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    Larry;
    Can't you show scripture to prove your point about effectual call. No Larry you can't because the two words do not appear in the Bible together. These two words together are but a dream of the Calvinist that wishes to prove his point and can't. Salvation is offered not shoved down our throats.I thank God that He in his sovereignty allows us to decide if we want to follow Him. God only offers Salvation. This has been proven to you many times, yet you reject it.
    I'll pray that you'll see the light :(
    Romanbear
     
  18. The Archangel

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    romanbear,

    Forgive me for jumping in....but,

    The Bible doesn't mention "Trinity" either. Are you suggesting that we recect the trinitarian view of God simply because the word doesn't appear in the Bible?

    I don't think so.

    Effectual Call, while not appearing in print, is referred to just as the trinity is referred to. While not explicit, it is an implicit correlation.

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     
  19. KenH

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    And I pray that you will understand that God saves you and not you yourself. That you will understand that you can't lift even your little finger to contribute in any way to being saved from your sins and a trip to hell.

    And I am confident that one day you will understand this to be true. [​IMG]
     
  20. Pastor Larry

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    The words "universal call" aren't found in Scripture, but you believe that don't you??? You talk of God only offering salvation. Yet Scripture never uses those words together. So your own belief is doomed by your own standard.

    The truth is that the effectual call is a theological term used to capsulize the biblical teaching about God's call. Far from being a dream, this is a doctrine taught in Scripture, that is rejected only by those with precommitments to certain positions.

    Consider the following verses:
    Rom 8:29-30 talks of a call that inevitably leads to justification and glorification. This call cannot go out to all men because not all are justified and glorified. For a short discussion, see Schreiner, Romans (BECNT) on this verse.

    1 Cor 1:23-4 contrasts the "called" with the unsaved who reject. Again, if all people are called with this call, then it makes no sense in this passage. This call is the difference between accepting (v. 24) and rejecting (V. 23).

    1 Cor 7:17-24 talks of remaining in the state in which a person was called to salvation. Obviously, this call accomplished its goal and is the difference between being saved and unsaved.

    1 Thess 5:24 says that the call will certainly be brought to pass. You cannot say that about the general call that goes out to everybody.

    1 Peter 2:9 talks of the call out of darkness into light. The unbelievers did not receive this call, as evidenced by the fact that they are still in darkness.

    Rom 1:6; 1 Cor 1:24, Jude 1, Rev 17:14 uses "called" as a synonym for believers. It is obvious that this is not the general invitation because being "Called" sets these people apart as the church to whom he is writing. It is clear that these books are not written to the unbelievers but to the called, the believers.

    1 Tim 6:12 talks of the eternal life to which they were called. The general call is not a call to eternal life.

    Other verses could be given and have been given. These verses simply cannot refer to God's general invitation to salvation. It is too specific for that. To reject the effectual call is to reject hte teaching of Scripture. What this shows, once again, is that you simply do not understand or do not know what you are talking about. There is an effectual call, a call that is effective in the lives of those whom it targets.

    On this you are right.

    Why thank God for something he didn't do? That doesn't seem right. Had he not regenerated you, you would still be following the old ways, walking according to the desires of your flesh and mind, being by nature a child of wrath (Eph 2:1-3). What you should be thanking God for is that he interevened to give you new life.

    God actually saves people

    No it hasn't, not by the standards of Scripture. I have refuted every point you have made, as have many others.

    Aside from the arrogance of this statement, it won't do any good. The light is contained in God's word that I continually cite as the basis of my belief. God never leads someone contrary to his word. Not even your prayers can accomplish that.
     

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