what do you think of this?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Jun 24, 2011.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    #1 Iconoclast, Jun 24, 2011
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  2. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    I think it is a very good article, especially since it coincides with my view. :laugh:
    My only comment would be that it is unnecessarily confrontational and is therefore likely to generate more heat than light on this board.
    Dispensationalists believe in a literal return of Christ and are therefore OK in my book even though I disagree with them on most of the particulars.

    Steve
     
  3. David Lamb

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    Agreed, Steve. For a fuller and less confrontational exposition, have you ever read Revalation Spiritually Understood, by Charles D. Alexander?
     
  4. Iconoclast

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    Yes.... it was written back in the 70's and I think it was meant to be confrontational. I was eager to "correct" many of the points he raised:laugh:
    Instead....I began to re-study what I was being taught.
     
  5. kyredneck

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    Thanks. I believe I will use this. It's concise and loaded with truth and some excellent points are made that I've never considered or heard of before.

    I like The Church of Greenville's website.
     
  6. Van

    Van
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    4. There is no millennial kingdom even possible on earth that could come close to this glorious description, and any talk of such a competing kingdom is heresy and blasphemy, and it is merely rehashing ancient Jewish fables (Luke 17:20-21; John 4:20-24; 18:36; Eph 2:11-22; 3:1-13)!

    Lets look at this statement, one premise at a time. Does the Millennial Kingdom need to “come close” to the heavenly kingdom? No. Does the Millennial Kingdom “compete” with the heavenly Kingdom? No. The heavenly kingdom, the kingdom of God, which exists now, pre-second coming, is where the spirits of believers go when our spirits depart our physical bodies. To be absence from the body is to be present with the Lord.

    Is a belief in a coming Millennial Kingdom heresy? No. It is the well-studied position of many believers. Is it blasphemy? No. It is based on accepting scripture as meaning what it says in a literal sense. It may be a mistaken view, but it is not blasphemy.

    Is the Millennial Kingdom a Jewish fable, or is it a promise of God, as stated in the bible? To support this view five passages are cited. Lets look at them, one at a time.

    Luke 17:20-21 refers to the “spiritual” kingdom of God, which is here now and can be entered spiritually when God spiritually places us “in Christ.” So this passage is non-germane to the point in question, unless someone is denying the “spiritual kingdom.”

    John 4:20-24 again refers to “worshiping” the Father as a citizen of the heavenly kingdom. So non-germane to the point in question.

    John 18:36 says Christ’s kingdom is not of this world. Therefore this is speaking of the “spiritual kingdom.” The fallacy here is to assume that Christ’s kingdom, which is spiritual now, will not become a physical kingdom in the future. It may or may not, but this verse does not address that issue.

    Ephesians 2:11- 3:13 yet again speaks of our citizenship in the kingdom of Christ, and so is non-germane.

    In summary, if this is the basis of “amillennialism” it rests on sand in a wadi.
     
  7. revmwc

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    Just read the first bit and see a bunch of TRASH as a deacon I once knew would say. That where that needs to go in the TRASH a good shreder would work nicely.
     
  8. JesusFan

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    what ever happened to just taking the "plain and literal" meaning for the Biblical text, and not try to "force" bible through ones own theological gridwork?
     
  9. Iconoclast

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    REVMAC,
    I do not think everything in this article is good...his attack on the post-mill teaching is very weak. There are many issues that are raised that are thought provoking,,,all these issues need to be looked at honestly.
     
  10. revmwc

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    2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
    3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
    4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

    Comes to mind as does this:
    2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
    4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
     
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    JF

    what does this verse mean?
    was a physical tabernacle literally rebuilt?
     
  12. BobinKy

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  13. revmwc

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    Since he started out saying the teaching of a messianic kingdom was Jewish fables it became trash immediately. Too many O.T. prophecies are yet to be fulfilled concerning a literal Jewish Kingdom with Christ (Davids son) ruling over Israel and the world.

    Isaiah comes to mind 9:5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.
    6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
    7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

    He was born physically and literally, as the son of God, Son of Man and the Son of David. The government has yet to be upon His shoulders, since He has no government it can't increase and be a peaceful on and He has yet to be upon David's throne and upon Davids in a physical literal Kingdom, much of that prophecy must be fulfilled and yet the author says the predictions of a Jewish Kihngdom are fables, that makes it trash from the very begining.

    I don't care if you're, pre-mil or post-mil this shows a literal physical Kkingdom of which the Jews and even the disciples were expecting to come.
     
  14. Iconoclast

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    revmac,



    What they thought or expected....and how it was fulfilled....do not have to match....
    14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

    16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

    I had just posted this for JF before;
    they did not rebuild a literal tabernacle here.

    29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

    30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

    33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

    35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

    36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

    This is true now revmac
     
  15. JesusFan

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    Knowing their 'jewish: expectations of a future and literal reign of Messiah on the earth, you would have thought Jesus would have rebuked and changed their minds on this during 40 days with them, but alas, they still held that mindset, asked jesus, and he did NOT say no, just not time yet!
     
  16. revmwc

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    Christ is seated by His Father never denied that, He is waiting until the time that His enemies become His footstool, then He will come and fulfill O.T. prophesies fully. That is not what He was saying the Messianic Kingdom is physical and yet to come.

    Now let's put Acts toghether with the Prophet that spoke it who lived under Uzziah which was prior to the first dispersion,
    Amos 9:8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
    9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
    10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.

    Was Judah and Israel dispersed and people perish by the sword under the Assyrians? Yes we are told it happened.


    11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

    Did the Jews rebuild the Temple under Ezra and Nehemiah? Yes it is recorded.

    12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
    13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
    14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
    They returned after the first dispersion and rebuilt the cities and the temple.

    15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

    They are yet to possess the land and be planted there during Messiahs reign.

    So again Acts was quoting what had taken place as Amos predicted, and as David knew that Messiah would come and sit on His throne. James quoted first Amos then talked about David who was confident Messiah would literally sit upon His throne in physical Israel.

    You are trying to group everything into on prophecy when it is several used to make the point the God who promised to bring the people out of capitivity as He did and they would rebuild the temple and they did under Nehemiah
    "that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."

    Amos prohecy had been fulfilled and James was making that point, so had the same Messiah come and after having been crucified as prophisied was not left in the grave to see coruption as David had been told, that Same Jesus is Lord and Christ and He will return to reign on David's throne.
     
  17. kyredneck

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    What James is saying in Acts 15 is what Peter is saying here:

    5 ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
    6 Because it is contained in scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: And he that believeth on him shall not be put to shame.
    7 For you therefore that believe is the preciousness: but for such as disbelieve, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner;
    8 and, A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
    9 But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God`s own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
    10 who in time past were no people, but now are the people of God: who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 1 Pet 2

    The incoming of the nations into the Church was the promised building again of the house of David, the restoration of Israel. It's a spiritual house, a spiritual kingdom.
     
    #17 kyredneck, Jun 24, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 24, 2011
  18. revmwc

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    The Messinic Kingdom is still yet to come physically with Christ reigning over Israel and all nations. Prophecy still to be fulfilled. We worship in Spirit and in Truth today in the Millenial Kingdom they will worship the King who has Come as Conqueror.
    The Kingdom of God is here and has been the Kingdom of Messiah reinning on the earth is yet future. That is what the article doesn't say. The church is a made up of peculilar people both Jew and Gentile who have been made Spirituallly alive and have the Holy Spirit residing in them.
    You seem to want to exclude the passages of O.T. and N.T. prophecy concerning the Messiah and His Kingdom upon earth, but scripture upon scripture is clear He will rule on David's Throne in Israel upon This Earth Literally and Physically.
     
  19. kyredneck

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    Are you saying that it's Abraham`s physical seed who are the real children of promise?

    Are we to look for another elect race, royal priesthood, holy nation?

    Are the Gentiles going to be the servants of the Jews?

    Will there be a return to animal sacrifices?

    A return to the law of Moses?
     
  20. Iconoclast

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    jf

    They understood after pentecost...not before
    but then this must be understood in a spiritual sense, for Christ's kingdom is not a worldly one; the raising up and rebuilding of this tabernacle, must design the reviving of true religion, the doctrine and practice of it, the enlargement of the church of God, by the conversion both of Jews and Gentiles:

    and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up; which has been done by breaking down the middle wall of partition between Jews and Gentiles, and letting in the latter into the Gospel church with the former, whereby it grows up to be an holy temple in the Lord; see Isaiah 54:2 and to this sense the Jews themselves (w) interpret it;

    "the holy blessed God will raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, as it is said, Amos 9:11 in that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David; for all the world shall be , "one bundle"; as it is said, Zephaniah 3:9''



    revmac.....none of the ot prophecies suffer if the kingly reign is from the heavenly Jerusalem

    1The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

    2And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

    3And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
    4And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

    this we are told is now...heb12:22-24

    ; and he himself the King of the Jews, was crucified by them; yet notwithstanding all this, David's tabernacle was to be rebuilt, and his kingdom to be restored by the Messiah, but in a spiritual way; for the tabernacle of David designs the spiritual kingdom or church of Christ, who is here called David, as in Ezekiel 34:23 and of whom David was an eminent type: and the church may be called a tabernacle, being in the present state of things, as to its place, uncertain and moveable, though ere long it will be a tabernacle that will not be taken down, Isaiah 33:20 and Christ's tabernacle, being of his building, and where he dwells and keeps his court, as King of saints; see Isaiah 16:5 and which was in a fallen ruinous condition when he came on earth, through the corrupt principles of the Pharisees and Sadducees, the bigotry and superstition of the one, and the deism of the other; and through the great decay of spiritual worship and powerful godliness, and the bad lives of professors, and the small number of truly godly persons: the Jews (s) themselves refer this prophecy to the times of the Messiah, yea, one of the names by which they call the Messiah is taken from hence (t): it is asked,
     
    #20 Iconoclast, Jun 24, 2011
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