What do you think the word "perfect" means in 1Cor. 13:10?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by music4Him, Jan 8, 2005.

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What do you think the word "perfect" means in 1Cor. 13:10?

  1. The 2nd Comming (of Jesus)

    56.4%
  2. The written Word of God

    23.1%
  3. Jesus himself

    20.5%
  4. other

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  1. music4Him

    music4Him
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    In another thread I ask when is it complete? Now after concideration of that question heres the next question in the form of a poll.

    What do you think the word "perfect" means in 1Cor. 13:10?

    1Cor.13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

    BTW, inside the poll there is a "other" button if you choose this please share your ideas. This is the fist poll I have ever did so I may have left something out. :eek:

    Thank you,
    Music4Him [​IMG]
     
  2. Matt Black

    Matt Black
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    I think the question is really "what does 'teleios' mean?" By translating it as 'perfect', you are already putting your slant on its meaning...

    I voted for the parousia btw, for the record

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  3. Archeryaddict

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    I agree with Matt

    well I can tell you that this verse is absolutley in no way Prophetic concerning Christs second coming.

    you have to read the whole chapter to fully understand this single verse

    the verse is speaking growing spiritually in the love of Jesus, everything that was part is gone because the part is now whole.
     
  4. music4Him

    music4Him
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    Matt Black, thank you for your feed back and like I said....this is my first poll ever to post, so if I didn't word something just right then I will apologize. I didn't mean to make a "slant" on the meaning, but evidently people understand what I ment. [​IMG]

    Archeryaddict, well I guess its all the way you look at it. Are you saying as soon as we "mature", growing spiritually in the love of Jesus, we no longer know in part.
    I look at the scripture as saying that "something" is going to happen to were tongues will cease, prophecy will fail, and knowledge will vanish away......a logical guess will be something that will be so complete that we will not to need these gifts anymore. [​IMG]

    Thank you,
    Music4Him [​IMG]
     
  5. Archeryaddict

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    M4H

    I am finished talking about it.
    evidently what the word means to me is totally different to what it means to you.

    I am not stuck on one single word out of the whole chapter to try to understand the meaning of the chapter.
    instead
    I have read the whole chapter to come to the understanding of what paul is saying.

    In His LOVE
    Mike.
     
  6. prophecynut

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    The "something" when gifts cease to exist and we become perfect is the rapture, not the Second Coming. Paul's letter was addressed "to the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ - their Lord and ours:" (v.2). The context is believers who make up the church, they are the ones who receive gifts from the Holy Spirit, not unbelievers. When the rapture occurs we will see Him "face to face" and "know fully" the grace and glory of our Savior just as He fully knows us while in the body today (v. 12).

    Perhaps the fourth choice should of been "rapture" instead of "other."
     
  7. music4Him

    music4Him
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    Sorry about that prophecynut and thank you for your input. [​IMG] I should have thought about that and added the rapture. I was going by the majority on the other thread "When is it complete?" as to what to put in the poll. In that thread no one had mentioned the rapture. [​IMG]

    Music4Him
     
  8. Archeryaddict

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    it is not talking about the rapture!


    I said i was finished talking about this word but when people keep mieinterpriting this passage of scripture I have to put in my .02
    Ok think whatever you want it to say :rolleyes:
    now I am moving on [​IMG]
     
  9. music4Him

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    [​IMG] for someone who is done talking about it you sure have alot to say? But you are welcome to come and give your opinion anytime. [​IMG] If its for this reason right here that might give a person a chance to just concider this passage.... and what would be perfect? What would be complete? So far 10 people have given it some thought, and I thank them for their answers. [​IMG]

    Peace~
    Music4Him
     
  10. Link

    Link
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    The meaning of the word for 'perfect' is probably not that hard to figure out-- something only the lines of completed, mature....

    What does it refer to in the text? I believe we should look at the overall context of I Corinthians and the 'long thoughts' Paul has in the book.

    In I Corinthians 8, Paul discusses the issue of eating meat offerred to idols. He seems to go off on a tangent in I 9 expounding on the issue of freedom mentioned in chapter 8. He talks about his right to be paid for the Gospel, but then gets back to the point about not eating meat offerred to idols in chapter 10. We can see that there are long themes that Paul expounds on and it takes several chapters. We need to be careful to follow the threads of Paul's reasoning in the longer context.

    In I Corinthians 13, Paul mentions tongues and prophecy, which he expounds on in chapter 14. He also mentions the coming of 'the perfect.' When the perfect comes, the imperfect-- the impartial or incomplete-- will be done away with. When the perfect comes, he will be known as he is known. He will be like an adult and his life as a Christian on earth will be like childhood.

    Is there something later in the text that fits this description? Yes! The state of the believer in the resurrection as described in I Corinthians 15. John says that we will be like Him, for we shall see Him as he is. Paul's use of grain as a metaphor fits very well with the concept of 'the perfect.' The corn of grain is immature, but the adult grain is mature, complete, what we might describe as 'telios'. Paul uses this as a means of describing the state of the believer in the resurrection.

    This fits well with the text because we can see how Paul's earthly life as a Christian, as great and mature as it was by our mortal standards, will seem like childhood. When Paul is resurrected, his life on earth will seem immature and incomplete.

    Of course, the state of the believer changes at the rapture-resurrection when Christ returns.
     
  11. music4Him

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    [​IMG] Link, thank you for your post.
     
  12. Archeryaddict

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    Link
    Good Post.
     
  13. Briguy

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    Some of you are close to the meaning but missing it by just a little bit. The "perfect" here is individual. When the perfect comes is referring to the eternal state of the believer. It happens either when we die and we see Jesus "face to face" or when he comes again and sets up His Kingdom, for those who are in Christ but don't physically die. The element of face to face is very important in understanding the meaning and can't be blown off as a figure of speech.

    This has absolutely nothing to do with when tongues cease. 1 Cor. is clear that Tongues will end on their own, they will fizzle out. Nothing happens that makes Tongues come to an end. The greek word for "cease" in the case of tongues literally means "fade away on their own".

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  14. beverly31

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    So when do tongues (and prophecy for that matter) cease? or have they already ceased? When I studied this, I thought perfect meant the completion of writing and compilation of the New Testament. I thought tongues and prophecy were used as a sign to the Jews in the early church before the Bible was complete. After all, Jesus opened the scriptures from Moses, the Prophets, and Pslams to the disciples only after the resurrection (Luke 24:44-45) so only then did even the twelve have the ability to understand the Old Testament fully. What I mean is, weren't tongues and prophecy only used in the interim to help those folks understand who just couldn't get it any other way since the Bible didn't exist yet as we know it today? Aren't we suppose to trust the Bible to be complete now, not needing anything added by prophecy or tongues?

    I'm a spiritual toddler so please forgive me my ignorance. I am neither fully mature nor do I profess to know everything, but I know Who does. [​IMG] Also I ask for moderator's forgiveness if I've gotten too far off the subject of the original post. [​IMG]

    By the way, since I'm new to the boards and people don't really know me yet, my questions may sound like I intend them to be retorical, but I assure you, I am seeking facts about these matters.

    Thanks!
    [​IMG]
     
  15. DHK

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    You got it right. Don't let anyone dissuade you otherwise.
    DHK
     
  16. Link

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    Bev... wrote,
    ***What I mean is, weren't tongues and prophecy only used in the interim to help those folks understand who just couldn't get it any other way since the Bible didn't exist yet as we know it today? Aren't we suppose to trust the Bible to be complete now, not needing anything added by prophecy or tongues?****


    This idea is a theory. The problem with it is that the Bible does not teach that prophecy was only around in the interim for those who could not get the scriptures. There are functions of the gift of prophecy that the Bible alone does not fill. For example, Timothy recieved prophecies related to his own personal gift and ministries. A preacher can be strengthened in his calling by reading the scriptures, but he does not know what his own calling is just from reading the Bible unless God reveals it to him in some way. The gift of prophecy is one way God can reveal things to people. The Bible also shows us that the Spirit can speak to people, God can speak through angels, through dreams, etc.

    The Bible does not teach that the Bible replaces gifts. It does teach that the scriptures are given so that the man of God might be fully equipped. One way it equips us is that it teaches us about the Holy Spirit, spiritual gifts that God gives us and how to use some of them properly; it teaches us about the grace of God and, faith in Christ, etc. The Bible does not replace grace, gifts of the Spirit, or faith in Christ. These are things the Bible teaches us about. It does not replace them. The Bible teaches us about gifts of the Spirit also. It does not replace them.
     
  17. Briguy

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    Link, good post!!

    Bev, Tongues as a gift, was a sign that pointed to a judgement against the Jews. This judgement came down in 70AD. After that the sign was not needed and so tongues faded away, just as Paul said so clearly said that they would.

    Because I believe that the perfect is not the Bible I believe that all the gifts remain, except for Tongues, Int, of tongues, Healing and Miracles. I believe, like Link that Prophecy (meaning "to speak before" (or "in front of") has many uses today as it is for the building up of the saints.

    DHK's position is a well respected position and deserves to be exaimened by anyone who is seeking the truth on this subject of the "perfect" and "gifts".

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  18. music4Him

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    Quote from briguy:
    __________________________________________________
    Bev, Tongues as a gift, was a sign that pointed to a judgement against the Jews. This judgement came down in 70AD. After that the sign was not needed and so tongues faded away, just as Paul said so clearly said that they would.
    __________________________________________________

    If Paul said it so clearly then wheres it at? Scripture and verse please. Because I see nothing saying that says tongues will cease. But I do however see alot of places where they are promised to to those who believe and also stating they are a gift from the Lord. [​IMG]

    Music4Him
     
  19. beverly31

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    I have a friend that tells me I am a prophetess. I don't know if I would go as far to call myself that. I do believe that the Spirit speaks to me. I know God has opened my eyes so I can understand scripture, apply it in my life, and give good sound biblical advice when requested (on matters I have already studied, understand, and applied in my own life that is. Matt 7:3-5). Until I was getting close to being saved, I could not understand the bible at all, although I had wanted to, even walked to church voluntarily as a small child because no one took me. So I know it is only by God's devine revelation that I can understand any of the bible. I'm not sure I feel comfortable calling that prophesy.

    John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    I guess my concern is about tongues being used today and how it relates to people being led into apostacy. It seems as though those who believe tongues are still used today will also believe various other odd teachings that can't be scripturally supported with careful study. So, Briguy, you agree with me then that tongues has already faded away, whether or not it was before or after the compliation of the New Testament as I fromerly theorized?
     
  20. Briguy

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    Bev. Yes, Tongues had a specific purpose and when their use was over they quietly faded away.

    M4H, this has been explained before but I will do it again for you quickly. The word in 1 Corithians 14:8 that says tongues will cease is a different verb (in the Greek) then the one that says when Knowledge and Prophecy will go away. In the case of Tongues, the word means “fizzle out” or fade away. But more then that it is a word that means that the fading is not caused by anything else. Picture a candle, it just burns until it is done, that is what the verse says. Tongues will fade away like the burning of a candle. In contrast the same Greek word is used for Prophecy and Knowledge and it means the opposite. It says that those two will end when something makes them end. The something in context is the “perfect”. Tongues fade away on their own and P and K are ended by something that makes them end. This cannot be denied as it is very clear. Tongues ends at a different time then P and K and ends all on its own. If you want, please offer a different reason for Paul picking the verbs that he did.

    In Christ,
    Brian

    1 Cor. 14: [8] Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
     

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