What do you think the word "perfect" means in 1Cor. 13:10?

So are you arguing that Paul was not saved when he spoke in tongues, recieved supernatural knowlege, etc?

 

So are you arguing that Paul was not saved when he spoke in tongues, recieved supernatural knowlege, etc? </font>[/QUOTE]I am not argueing it at all. But imagine we could ask him of what importance it was for him. He did give us the answer, you know, he said although he talked in tongues more than anyone, now what was he said it was like ...? It amounts to he didn't think it of any importance or value whatsoever, and I'm sure when he said he counted all things loss for Jesus, he would have answered affirmative all things included those gifts he was so endowed with.

 

Hi Link, just going to touch on a thing or two.

You said that Tounges, which are always REAL LANGUAGES can benefit a person who speaks them outside the "Body". Are you saying that Paul is not addressing the gathered assembly in 1 Cor. 14 because he surely is, especially in regards to the use of Spiritual gifts. 1 Cor. 12:7 says that spiritual gifts are given for the gathered assembly as a whole and not the individual. Self edification is fine but not by using a God given siritual Gift. Self use would pervert the gift. For example we know that Paul had a "thorn", probably very bad eye problems, anyway, he had the gift of healing and miracles as he healed regularly and even raised the dead. He could have healed himself, he had the power within to do that but he chose not to. All he did is what we do now and that is appeal to God to remove our burden. God did not choose to heal Paul but Paul could have healed himself. He would not though because he understood more then anybody that gifts were used to edify the body only and not to edify individuals.

OK, getting back to speaking a real language that you do not know, to yourself. If I just sat arounf and spoke Spanish out loud just to do it, because I had a gift which let me, of what use would that be. Logically, it seems if I am going to talk to God or to myself it should be in my native tongue, where I have my greatest understanding.

In the KJV the word "unknown" is added to the text. In all the cases but one it seems certain that unknown Tongue, is referring to gibberish and so could be interpreted "pretend language" Paul explained in 1 Cor. 12 that having a gift that puts you in the spot light is not better then other gifts. In the Corinth church, as happens to this day, speaking in tongues, has a value and those who do it feel better about themselves because they do it. Paul told the Corinthians to stop trying to be "showy" and love others. He went on to rebuke and show them that Tongues were not what they thought and many of them who thought they had the gift did not. That is why he includes what tongues really were, a sign to unbelieving Jews, so they would understand they did not have to try to have something they did not have.

More to come, I hope!!

In Christ,
Brian

 

Briguy said:----In the KJV the word "unknown" is added to the text. In all the cases but one it seems certain that unknown Tongue, is referring to gibberish and so could be interpreted "pretend language"---.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tam says:

Here are some definitions of gibberish which I foubd on dictionary.com

gib·ber·ish ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jbr-sh)
n.
1. Unintelligible or nonsensical talk or writing.

2. Highly technical or esoteric language.
Unnecessarily pretentious or vague language.

I think that def #2 applies to most of the gibberish we are hearing here on this subject.

Unnecessarily pretentious, is something that there is a lot of when trying to twist the scripture to say that speaking in tongues is gibberish.

Highly technical is another thing people use to try to discredit us. Scripture is posted and twisted and ommitted, etc.

Then when we who already KNOW the truth of the matter tell you it doesn't make sense, you say we are unlearned misled heritics!!

You are the ones who are speaking gibberish!!

What you say about tongues, the perfect, and healing,is all classified as gibberish.

By the way Briguy, when are you going to learn that the HEALING COMES FROM GOD not from the people who have the gift. God does not operate the same way as us mortal human beings do.

A person who has the gift of healing, cannot conjure up the healing power as if it were a genie in a bottle!!


Paul would have healed himself if God had said yes!! What was he supposed to do, just pull out the gift and heal himself anyway and go against God.

Briguy,this is not just for you,(don't want to dump the whole message on just one sheep) but for all the people who keep making fun of Gods gifts.


Hopefully everyone who reads this will think about it for awhile before posting answers!

Working for Jesus,

Tam

 

Tam, hope you are well these days!!

I am sure I have shared this before but will again briefly, just for you!!

Spiritial Gifts truely are "gifts". They are a present given from God to us. If I give you a car but not the keys the gift is of no value. If I give you a car and the keys and say this is your car it is a real gift. You will then decide when and where you go in YOUR CAR. God fully gave us our gifts and we decide when and where to use them. This is seen the easiest in the teaching/preaching gift. I have never seen a preacher get up to deliver a message and say they can't speak because God didn't power their gift today. No, the gift to preach is in the preacher and they can use it whenever they want. All Spiritual Gifts operate the same or we would be told otherwise in scripture. We can use our gifts at our will which makes it so important to understand gifts and to stay close to God and His people so you use your gift often and properly. Based on this if a tongue speaker had the gift of tongues they could speak any language they wanted at their will. No one can do that, so based on that I know the gift has passed away and thats without the rest of the Biblical proof that has been provided. When thought of in this light and as our responsibility, Spiritual gifts take on a much more important significance.

Well, ever thought of it like that? Most Christians, good well meaning Christians, don't but they should as it really is important but it is not a concept many teach in the churches today.

In Christ,
Brian

 

Well, Briguy, that was exactly what I thought you would do. If I've heard that gibberish from you once I've heard it at least 20 times.

It doesn't matter how much you put it up, it does not make it so.

It is meaningless drivel, designed to confuse others. I'm not saying you do this on purpose, but what you say doesn't make any sense. It's useless jibber jabber. It does not hold together. doesn't prove anything about the gifts of the Spirit.

You are talking in the natural, the way man thinks! The gifts are given by the Holy Ghost. You are comparing apples and oranges and it makes no sense!

Peace,

Tam

 

Tam, I am sorry if I upset you. I think you know that I post from my heart. I would never intentially try to confuse anybody. This happens to be a concept that I understand and so I proclaim it with some confidence. I hope it doesn't come across as arrogance.

When it comes to the gift of healing we only hear of it a very little bit in the NT. It was a gift possessed by the Apostles and just a few others and it gave POWER and AUTHORITY to the preaching of God's Gospel in the early days of the church. It was a miraculous gift and it was at the will of the user. Take the account of Peter healing the crippled beggar. There was no ceremony, no service, no prayer. Peter took the man by the hand and pulled him to his feet and he was healed. Peter used his gift. Think about two things that the Bible tells us. Pauls sweat filled hankerchiefs(sp?) healed people as well as Peter's shadow. There was supernatural power in these men. A gift of healing that authenticated the message they brought. As the full Bible was complete and the church matured, the miraculous gifts ended and the full Bible became the authority by which the gospel was preached. The miraculous gifts, like the apostles and the prophets, were foundational to the "church".

Now, as you have said, God chooses when and if He heals someone. We pray and He responds. This practice has always occured, it is just that there were those few in the early church who actually had the power to heal within them.

I hope that cleared things up for you. Not that you believe what I say but at least that you see the logic and reasoning behind what I am saying.

Wishing you well, God's blessings,
Brian

 

Briguy,

You didn't upset me at all! I understand perfectly well what you said, and was just explaining to you why it is not correct.

You're right, I don't believe you, so I guess it's a draw, because you don't believe me either.


Peace,

Tam

 

Briguy wrote,

**You said that Tounges, which are always REAL LANGUAGES can benefit a person who speaks them outside the "Body". Are you saying that Paul is not addressing the gathered assembly in 1 Cor. 14 because he surely is, especially in regards to the use of Spiritual gifts.**

And in verse 28, Paul shows us that it is acceptable to speak in tongues outside of the assembly. the principle from earlier in the chapter still applies, that he who speaks in tongues edifies himself, i.e. builds himself up. Also, Paul says he speaks in tongues more than all the Corinthians, but IN THE CHURCH, he would rather speak 5 words with his understanding... Paul may have spoken in tongues more than all the Corinthians-- outside of church-- but in church he preferred to use the understanding to instruct others.


*** 1 Cor. 12:7 says that spiritual gifts are given for the gathered assembly as a whole and not the individual***

This verse does NOT say that spiritual gifts are 'not for the individual.' It says that they are 'to profit withal.' The immediate context is about the body, but it does not refer to the 'gathered assembly.' we read about 'body' and not 'church' until the end of the chapter.

Can using a gift to build oneself up be good for the whole? Sure.

**Self edification is fine but not by using a God given siritual Gift.***

This doesn't even make sense. Please show scripture to prove your point. How can we build ourselves up effectively without God's grace to empower us to do it?


**OK, getting back to speaking a real language that you do not know, to yourself. If I just sat arounf and spoke Spanish out loud just to do it, because I had a gift which let me, of what use would that be. Logically, it seems if I am going to talk to God or to myself it should be in my native tongue, where I have my greatest understanding. **

Paul answers your question. He says if he speaks in tongues his spirit prays, and that he that speaks in tongues builds himself up. We do not have to understand the dynamics of it to believe the scriptures.


***In the KJV the word "unknown" is added to the text. In all the cases but one it seems certain that unknown Tongue, is referring to gibberish and so could be interpreted "pretend language"***

I don't see what the KJV translators adding 'unknown' has to do with it. And from reading the passage, I see it saying the opposite of what you are arguing here. Paul's comments about speaking into the air lead up to his explanation that speaking sensible words in a perfectly valid language to someone who does not understand it causes you to be a 'barbarian' to that person.

This is the only reference to 'gibberish' I can see in the passage. It is believe that 'barbarian' comes from the idea that foreigners said 'bar bar bar bar'-- they babbled. The non-Greek speakers (and perhaps in Paul's idea, non-Jew, non-Greco-Romans) were 'barbarians.' But barbarians spoke real languages. They were Barbarians to Greeks who did not understand the languages.

Otherwise, I see absolutely nothing in the passage to indicate that Paul is calling speaking in tongues gibberish. In fact, why would Paul use the word 'glossolalia' if he were talking about gibberish? Why would he use a word that means speaking in a foreign language if he were talking about babbling. It doesn't make sense.

** Paul explained in 1 Cor. 12 that having a gift that puts you in the spot light is not better then other gifts.***


Paul doesn't say that one gift is not better than other gifts, but he does say that the feeble parts are 'necessary.'


**In the Corinth church, as happens to this day, speaking in tongues, has a value and those who do it feel better about themselves because they do it. Paul told the Corinthians to stop trying to be "showy" and love others.**

I think you are reading into the text. Paul says that if he spoke in tongues but did not have love he would be as a sounding brass or a tinkling cymbol. Does that mean Paul is rebuking the Corinthians for being 'showy?' I do not see how this leap in your reasoning is supported by the text.

I do not see anywhere in I Corinthians 14 where Paul tells the Corinthians that their motivation for speaking in tongues is to be showy, attract attention, or to make themselves feel better about themselves. If you can show me any of these things in the text, please go ahead.

Paul does attribute their behavior to a lack of understanding.

I Corinthians 14:20. Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.**

Maybe the Corinthians thought that if they spoke in tongues without interpretation, something spiritual and supernatural was happening. Or maybe they just didn't give it any thought and just spoke in tongues without interpretation in the meeting. Paul does not tell us that their childish understanding had anything to do with being showy. It is not fair to the Corinthians to read these ideas into the text. Apparently, at least some the Corinthians were ignorant and needed teaching to understand the principles behind an edifying church meeting, and that is what Paul provides in the passage.

Nowhere does Paul question the validity of the Corinthian's gift of tongues, or indicate that it is not real. If you can show me evidence to the contrary, please go right ahead.


** He went on to rebuke and show them that Tongues were not what they thought and many of them who thought they had the gift did not.**

What version of the Bible are you reading? I have a KJV, NIV, NKJV, and none of them have any verses that say this. What verses are you talking about?

**That is why he includes what tongues really were, a sign to unbelieving Jews, so they would understand they did not have to try to have something they did not have. ***

The passage says that tongues are for a sign to unbelievers, but does not mention 'unbelieving Jews.' But this has absolutely nothing to do with the idea that the Corinthian's gift of tongues was fake.

***Spiritial Gifts truely are "gifts". They are a present given from God to us. If I give you a car but not the keys the gift is of no value. If I give you a car and the keys and say this is your car it is a real gift. You will then decide when and where you go in YOUR CAR. God fully gave us our gifts and we decide when and where to use them. This is seen the easiest in the teaching/preaching gift. I have never seen a preacher get up to deliver a message and say they can't speak because God didn't power their gift today. No, the gift to preach is in the preacher and they can use it whenever they want.***


Spiritual gifts are 'charismata'. They are manifestations of God's grace. Do we use them as we will without any limitations? No, of course not.

If the gift of teaching had no limitations, then a teacher could teach on anything. Imagine you have the gift of teaching, and you are invited to speak at a church. When you arrive, they tell you, "Oh, yes, since you have the gift of teaching, please teach us about the following topic: We want to know all about the Kenites." If you haven't studied about the Kenites, and you don't have a concordance, or other tools, you might not be able to teach on this topic. If you are asked to explain the symbolism of the parts of the tabernacle, or certain Old Testament rituals, you may need to have some understanding from the Spirit before you can adequately teach these things. The gift of teaching is limited by the knowledge of the teacher.

If someone has the gift of prophecy, can he just prophesy anything he wants to, and make it come to pass? Could Agabus have just decided he wanted there to be an earthquake, and prophesied it into being? Could he just make God say something God didn't want to say, and share this message from God? True prophets using the true gift of prophecy relate messages that God gives them. They can't just will up a message and still be using the true gift.

Philip was translated. Does that mean he owned this as a gift, and he never had to walk or ride a camel ever again? Paul worked a miracle. Why didn't he just translate himself out of prison, or make the bars fly off of the jail cell? Instead of going hungry, why didn't he just turn stones into bread?

The gifts of the Spirit need to be used according to the will of God.

*** Self use would pervert the gift. For example we know that Paul had a "thorn", probably very bad eye problems, anyway, he had the gift of healing and miracles as he healed regularly and even raised the dead. He could have healed himself, he had the power within to do that but he chose not to. All he did is what we do now and that is appeal to God to remove our burden. God did not choose to heal Paul but Paul could have healed himself. He would not though because he understood more then anybody that gifts were used to edify the body only and not to edify individuals.***


First of all, there is no reason from the context to think that Paul's thorn in the flesh was sickness. The context is about Paul's suffering, and the thorn is a messenger/angel from Satan. The thorn may have been a human messenger of Satan, like one of the false apostles mentioned earlier in the chapter, who might have stirred up persecution against him. Or it might have been a demon spirit that stirred up persecution.

You brought up Paul's sickness. This is actually one of the best arguments against your view of gifts of the Spirit. Many scholars now believe that Galatia was south Galatia, an area reached on Paul and Barnabas' first missionary journey. The Galatians apparently were familiar enough with Barnabas for Paul to mention him to them. According to Galatians 5:13, Paul and Barnabas were both miracle workers.

If miracles were automatically done by the apostles, at their own will, just like a superhero using his powers, why didn't Barnabas instantaneously heal Paul?

What we see in Acts is that the 12 apostles prayed for God to stretch out His hand to do signs and wonders. They had to pray for these things. They didn't just have complete control over it. There were times when God did a lot of miracles through Paul, and Luke thought it important enough to mention that this was going on in Acts.

*** All Spiritual Gifts operate the same or we would be told otherwise in scripture. We can use our gifts at our will which makes it so important to understand gifts and to stay close to God and His people so you use your gift often and properly.***

I do not see where scripture teaches that all spiritual gifts operated 100% at the will of the person who operates in the gift. I see too many reasons to believe otherwise.


** Based on this if a tongue speaker had the gift of tongues they could speak any language they wanted at their will.***

I do not see anything in the Bible that would cause me to believe that. The gifts function the way they function. If the Bible doesn't specify they must function a certain way, who are we to say that they do.


No one can do that, so based on that I know the gift has passed away and thats without the rest of the Biblical proof that has been provided. When thought of in this light and as our responsibility, Spiritual gifts take on a much more important significance.

Well, ever thought of it like that? Most Christians, good well meaning Christians, don't but they should as it really is important but it is not a concept many teach in the churches today.

 

Acts 5
[12] And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
[13] And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.
[14] And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)
[15] Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
[16] There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

Acts 19
[10] And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.
[11] And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
[12] So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

Tam, above are Biblical examples of the gift of healing being a supernatural thing that filled and even spilled out from the person with the gift. It was a miraculous gift and had great power. I know of nobody's shadow or sweat that can heal today. The gifts that were miraculous, by their very nature, passed away with the Apostles and a select few in the early church. This is a practical application of Truth based on what we can see happening with our own eyes. Not every teaching in the Bible is spelled out for us. Some things we know from a combination of the written Word and our own experience. Please don't apply that thought to speaking in tongues as that would change the meaning of what I am saying (just heading you off at the pass on that one - ha ha)

In Christ,
Brian

 

Hey Briguy,

You go ahead and interpret scripture however it suits your needs. Because I'm not the one missing out on a blessing, you are.

Do have a nice day!!



Tam

 

Briguy,

In Acts 4, we see that the apostles prayed for signs and wonders before this season of miracles broke out.

Btw, who is to say that the gift of working of miracles or that the gift of healings functioned the same way in the same intensity in the members of the body who were not apostles? I Corinthians 12 shows us that these gifts were distributed to the believers in Corinth, not just to the apostles.

You spoke of scripture and experience. If the gifts supposedly ceased, why do some people get healed when someone lays hands on them, or when someone puts a prayed-over handkerchief on them today if these things have supposedly ceased?

 

Link and Music4Him,
You have totally missed the point and have failed to answer one of the most basic questions concerning spiritual gifts, particularly healing. No one denies that healing takes place today. We all agree with that. But the supernatural spiritual gift of healing has ceased. If it hasn't ceased you would be able to come up with the evidence that it has not ceased, which up to this point you fail miserably to do so.
1. Both Peter and Paul were, at certain points in their ministeries, able to heal all that came to them. Scripture testifies to this. Like Christ, all that came to them were healed, no one excepting.

2. There is no one alive today that has that power. There is no one alive that can go into a hospital and walk up and down the corridors and heal all that are there, or stay all night in the ER, and heal all that come into it. There was no one who went to Indonesia when the Tsunami hit, and healed all that were injured. Why not you Link, since you are there, and believe in the gifts? Why didn't you exercise this gift? Why didn't anyone else?
The reason--it doesn't exist. It ceased 1900 years ago, along with all the other spiritual gifts. Give evidence that it hasn't.
DHK

 

DHK,

The problem here is if we give you evidence, your reject it.

I went to a Christian school affiliated with a certain church in middle school. One of the girls who was a year ahead of me had severely crossed eyes. There was a crusade at the church. I went and the evangelist laid hands on people to be healed. He walked a woman around who was in a wheelchair, but I didn't know if the woman could walk at all before. It was so crowded that I couldn't see who was being prayed for most of the time.

The next day, I heard this girl had gotten healed, so I went over to talk to her. Here obviously crossed eyes were no longer crossed before. She said she had gone up for prayer at the crusade and had gotten healed. Healed by the laying on of hands, something we see in the Bible.

I was in a crusade where the preacher laid hands on someone who went up for being deaf in one ear, and the person (someone I didn't know) said they were healed. I've seen a few other things.

Reality does not agree with your assertion that miraculous healings do not occur. Neither does scripture.

You said at certain times in the apostles' ministries that everyone who came to them were healed. This may be true, but it also indicates that there were times that the apostles didn't heal everyone. The implication of scripture is that faith promotes healing and unbelief prevents or hinders healing. The Bible says that Jesus could do not do any mighty miracles in Nazareth because of their unbelief. Peter and John saw huge masses of people healed--where? Israel, where people already believed in one God. When Paul was preaching to the Lyaconians, who got healed? One man who Paul percieved had _faith_ to be healed. The Achenese are famous among Christians here in Indonesia for their unbelief, rejection of the Gospel, and driving out Christians and even Muslims of different races from their territory. Hopefully after the tsunami this attitude will change, but if this is the attitude, I wouldn't expect even the apostle Paul to do great healing miracles among people with this attitude.

Btw, I live quite far away from where the tsunami hit. Indonesia is a big country. I didn't even feel the earthquake here in the southern portion of the country.

I have heard reports from missions fields about great outpourings of miracles. Since I believe in miracles and gifts, like the Bible teaches, I do not find it dificult to believe that some of these reports may be true. But I haven't seen such a huge outpouring of miracles myself. I have, however, seen enough to know that miracles take place. If one miracle takes place, it proves that miracles takes place. Saying, "Why doesn't someone come empty out this hospital?" does not prove miracles do not exist.

If you say that there are no blue whales and argue "I have never seen one. The ocean is not full of them." that does not prove that there are NO blue whales left. If I show you a blue whale or two, I have proven my case that you are wrong to assert that there are no blue whales.

In the Bible, we never see Jesus going into a hospital and healing everyone. He went to the pool of Siloam on one occasion, where sick people gathered, and healed _one_man. Jesus did heal all that came to Him at time. That is important to note-- they came to Him. Presumably they came with some measure of faith in Christ that He could heal them, even if it were not always saving faith.

 

Please read and study your Bible, Link

Acts 5:15-16 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.

16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

Acts 28:8-9 And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him. So when this was done, others also, which had diseases in the island, came, and were healed:

The account concerning Peter says that there was a multitude out of the cities round about Jerusalem bringing sick folk. This was a great multitude from many cities. It says that they were ALL healed.
Please read and reread, and reread my posts. I do not deny that God heals in this day and age. I deny that the spiritual gift of healing operates today in the same way that Peter and Paul used it as described above. You describe a healing here, a healing there. I can give you the same examples. I too have seem people healed in my ministry. That is not the point. No one today has the gift of healing such as Peter or Paul could exercise in the first century. I never claimed that they exercised it all the time. It was not God's will for them to exercise it all the time, just as it was not God's will for early believers to speak in tongues all the time. The gifts were of the Holy Spirit, and under His direction and control--not to be used of the flesh. But you can't point to a single person who has that gift of healing today. God heals, yes--we all agree. But he doesn't heal the same way he did in the first century. Why don't you admit that? Peter healed ALL that came to him. No one does that today. Why? The gifts have ceased.
DHK

[ January 31, 2005, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

Hey Link, I will answer this line of questioning but I want to get back to tongues in the coming day or two. Sorry I have so little time to post that I leave gaps. Please accept my apology for that.

I believe that miracles and healings occur. The big difference is that it is now God that decides not the person with the Gift. When the Gift of Healing truely operated it was up to the person and that is why when they healed someone it was instant and certain. Crippled, deformed hands were made whole, bent up legs were straightened. The dead were raised. I have watched many a TV preacher heal people. NEVER EVER ONE TIME was there a totally deformed body part made whole in front of the camera. NO NEW LIMBS ever grown in any footage I have ever seen. Every person healed in revivals has an internal problem or legs that look fine but don't quite work right. Everyone has a story of someone healed and praise God many of the stories and things we have witnessed are true. Many of the "removed" stories of the miracles in other lands are not true. With all the video camera's in the world, millions of them, surely a real gifted healer healing ALL diseases and health problems would be on tape restoring limbs, etc...
Like DHK, I have heard no stories of healers heading to the Tsunami victims hospitals. How selfish is that!!!!! A person has a Gift to Heal and doesn't go where thousands upon thousands are hurt and dying?? Why don't they go??? because they do not have a gift to heal. They are either frauds or they have prayed for a few people who God answered their prayer and healed the person but they have no confidence that God will heal those Tsunami victims.

Link, M4H, This is a practical and logical thing. It has nothing to do with your individual stories. M4H, praise God that He healed you!!! - Yes God works many healings today, much of the time with the use of doctors and medicine, sometimes without. Many many good faithful believers die in a hospital bed, being taken by one of many diseases. Good, faithful saints who believe God can heal, but God takes them home instead. In our era it is God's choice every time. In the early church the healing gave the brand new message power and authority and thats why God gave the gift of healing and allowed those men (I believe only men but that is a different subject for sure - and I am not a member of the HE-MAN WOMAN HATERS CLUB!) the power themselves to heal all those around them and to preach the message. Primairly the Apostles had this gift but a few others did as well. Link you must address the main points here and not dispute fact with a story or a healing or two. The miraculous gifts of the early church had direct significance to that time. DHK would say that all of the "Gifts" were miraculous and held to the same sort of significance as I have said. I believe that the non-miraculous gifts remain to this day. Both views are good and deserve study by the honest seeker.

In Christ,
Brian