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What does 1 Corinthians Verses 6,7,14,15 mean??????

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by TaliOrlando, Dec 13, 2007.

  1. standingfirminChrist

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    Just wondering Joe. when yer riding that bike, do ya take that headcovering off before praying?
     
  2. Joe

    Joe New Member

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    Wasn't planning on it, but....?
     
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    In 1Cor.11:1-16 Paul gives a number of reasons why a woman ought to wear a head covering. This has nothing to do with culture. It is a command that is given to every generation just as the Lord's Supper was given in the following verses from 17ff.

    1 Corinthians 11:2-3 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
    3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
    --In verse 2 he calls it an ordinance, that is, it is a command to be kept (not dependent on culture, or that period of time). This was not something applicable only to the Corinthians. The Bible is for all of us, particularly the NT.
    In verse 3 he gives the reason why--headship. The head of every man is Christ. The head of the woman is the man. This is the order that God has ordained. He has ordained that man should be the head of the household.
    Thus the first principle that Paul sets forth in giving reasons why a woman should wear a head covering is:

    1. Because of the headship of man (vs 3-6)

    1 Corinthians 11:4-6 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
    --Her head needs to be covered with a head covering while she is praying (or in today's church service).

    --If she does not cover her head it is the same as if she had shaven her head bald (a disgraceful shame).
    --Therefore if she refuses to wear a headcovering she should be shaven ("Let her be shorn"). It is phrased as a command. This is not something to slough off as unimportant; it is a command. It is serious. Think about this and the reasons given. The reason given here is headship. She must recognize her submission to her husband (or father), and that the man has authority over the woman (the general principle here).


    The second principle that Paul teaches, why a woman should wear a head-covering:


    2. Because of God's order in creation (vs 8.9)

    1 Corinthians 11:8-9 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.

    9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
    --God created the man first, and then the woman.

    --He created the woman out of the man.
    --This is the order of the creation. God has order, and is a God of order. He shows this in his creation. And for this reason a woman should wear a head covering. It shows the man is the head. He came first.


    The third reason that Paul gives why a woman should wear a head-covering:



    3. Because of the angels (v 10)

    1 Corinthians 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
    --The angels look down from heaven and behold the wondrous aspects of the redemption of mankind, which they don't fully understand. You may not understand this. And you don't have to. But God says that for the angel's sake a woman needs to have a head covering. By faith believe the Scriptures.


    A fourth reason that Paul gives why a woman should wear a head-covering.



    4. Because of a sense of propriety (v 13)

    1 Corinthians 11:13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
    --"Is it comely?" Is it right?

    The WEB translates the verse this way:


    1 Corinthians 11:13 Judge for yourselves. Is it appropriate that a woman pray to God unveiled?
    --It is a matter of what is appropriate. It is inappropriate to show up at church with your head uncovered.


    A fifth reason Paul gives why a woman should wear a head covering:



    5. Because of the natural order of things (the distinction between male & female and the woman's natural covering; vs 14,15)

    1 Corinthians 11:14-15 Doesn't even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him? 15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her, for her hair is given to her for a covering.
    --It is natural for a man to have short hair.
    --It is natural for a woman to have long hair.
    --Long hair is a glory to her.
    --I see that this is true in other cultures. Canada is multi-cultural nation. I have seen some Hindu and Sikh women from India who, when they sit on a normal kitchen chair, their hair reaches the floor. It seems that many of these people take pride in their hair more than most Christians I know. I find it odd. "Doth not nature itself teach us...."


    The sixth reason that Paul gives why a woman should wear a head covering.



    6. Because of the practice of all the churches (v 16)

    1 Corinthians 11:16 But if any man seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither do God's assemblies.
    --Understand the meaning of this verse. We don't have a custom of being contentious. If you are going to be contentious about the truth that I have just taught you pack up your bags and go somewhere else. Our custom is not being contentious, but being in unity over the truth.

    --Neither do the churches of God have a custom of being contentious, rather they are in unity with me in this teaching. This is the practice of all the churches. It needs to be the practice of all the churches today. It has nothing to do with adultery, sex, specific sins of specific cultures, the culture of Corinth, etc. It is a timeless teaching that is just as relevant as the teaching that immediately follows--that of the Lord's Supper. You can't ignore the first half of the chapter and then accept the second half of the chapter. That is inconsistent.
     
  4. trustitl

    trustitl New Member

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    The practice of being contentious is being performed by those that are setting standard of length of hair and forcing women to wear cloth on their heads. Paul is telling the Corithians to stop striving over such things. You will not find the words "women need to wear a headcovering".

    Women are to have "power" (exousia) on their head, not a dish rag. They are to be under authority and like the angels, those that stay under authority honor their head: that is under the man for a woman, and under Christ for the man.

    It is not comely for a woman who is not under the authority of her husband to go to God. She is in rebellion to God and should not expect to be honored by her creator when she in not honoring his order.
     
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Then what do these verses mean:

    1 Corinthians 11:5-6 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
    6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

    The woman was to have her head covered. This is in plain English. If she didn't have her head covered she should have it shaved--a mark of disgrace and shame. Since no woman would take it to that extreme, all women had their heads covered. Paul uses an expression much like Jesus does:

    If thine eye offend thee pluck it out.
    He doesn't literally mean that we should pluck our eyes out, but rather that our objective in life should be that it would be better to go through life without an eye and no sin (or particular kind of sin), then to go through life and live in sin. Jesus is not advocating the removal of an eye, but rather obedience to His Word.

    Paul is not advocating the shaving of a head, but rather obedience to His Word--the wearing of a head covering.
     
  6. trustitl

    trustitl New Member

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    Paul is saying a woman needs to be under her husbands authority, hence the use of the word exousia. This is what she needs on her head. If you want to have a symbol of that on her head go ahead, but don't get contentious and try make it a custom for all churches.

    Luke 23:7 "And as soon as he knew that he belonged unto Herod's jurisdiction(greek exousia), he sent him to Herod, who himself also was at Jerusalem at that time."

    I Cor 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered (greek exousiazo: verb form of exousia) by anything.

    I Cor. 7:4 The wife does not have authority (greek exousiazo) over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.


    BTW, Jesus was pointing out to the Jews that they were unable to stop themselves from sinning with these words in Matthew. He was the only way they could be free from the power of sin. Obedience to his word was not the point, but rather the circumcision made without hands and the putting off the body of flesh was. See Col. 2:11. This is how we can be free from sin, not trying to obey his word. The Pharisees had been trying that for hundreds of years and it hadn't worked. A lack of understanding this is what makes people look for things in God's word to "obey". We need to obey in the sense of being under the authority of Christ in everything we do. That is life changing. That will make a wife submissive, not passive. A piece of cloth on her head is of no value for her unless her husband, in error, tells her to wear it. She is in submission to her husband, he is mislead (like I used to be on this subject).
     
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You have completely ignored the commands given in 1Cor.11:1-16. The Scripture given above does not negate what Paul teaches in 1Cor.11. The Bible does not contradict itself. What are you saying? All things are lawful unto me--murder? adultery? theft? Anything I don't want to do, even if the Lord commands it, is my choice to disobey because "all things are lawful unto me." That is not the meaning of that verse!!
    The Lord, speaking through the Apostle Paul, gave some specific commands. He expects them to obeyed. Why do you ignore the commands that he gives in 1Cor. 11:1-16?
     
  8. trustitl

    trustitl New Member

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    I have not completely ignored what Paul teaches here. Paul says "for this cause" a woman is to have power (exousia) on her head. I confirm that. You are the one that says she needs something more that what Paul is saying. You are free to do that, but to say that I am completely ignoring what Paul is saying is pretty extreme.

    Paul does not say that a woman's hair is her glory. He says it is A glory and A covering, but it is not what she needs to be covered with. Also, it is only nature that teaches us that. Nature teaches us a lot, but it is not what we are to base our customs on.
     
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    What is the "power" on her head? Is it "hair" or an actual head-covering. It is not hair; but an actual head-covering. If she is not wearing a head-covering she should be shorn. That is what the verse says, and it is not a custom, but a command.

    1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman praying or prophesying with her head unveiled dishonors her head. For it is one and the same thing as if she were shaved. (WEB)
    --It is fairly clear in the WEB translation isn't it? In fact there are a number of translations that will translate the word "veil," or "headcovering."

    The Greek word "uncovered" in verse 5 is "akatakalupto".
    The Greek word for "covering" in verse 15 is "peribolaiou," a completely different word.
    Verse 15 "the covering" or "a covering" is used in context to long hair being natural to a woman as opposed to short hair being natural for a man. There is a contrast there. It is the natural order of things. Paul is not speaking of the head-covering per se, but why the head-covering should be worn, as I explained in a previous post.

    In the first few verses Paul demands that every woman be covered with a head covering. There is no dispute about this. It is clear as crystal. Verse 15 does not define the first few verses of the chapter.

    The only custom spoken of in this chapter is: we have no such custom of being contentious. Paul said don't be contentious. Of that we don't have any such custom. Wearing a head covering was a command having nothing to do with culture, being contentious, customs, etc. Those who neglect this command do so in wilfull rebellion of God's Word.
     
  10. standingfirminChrist

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    1 Corinthians 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

    The covering cannot be referring to a woman's hair, for if it were, the verse would not make sense.

    1 Corinthians 11:6 For if the woman have no hair on her head, let her be shaved bald: but if it be a shame for a woman to be have no hair, let her have hair.

    meaningless dribble.

    No, the covering was something that covered the hair.

    The covering cannot be the husband, for that would mean every single woman out there would be forbidden to pray to God. Yet God's Word records that Anna, a prophetess, prayed in the temple daily.

    NO, the covering was not the hair itself, nor was it a husband.
     
  11. trustitl

    trustitl New Member

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    standingfirminChrist
    The covering cannot be the husband, for that would mean every single woman out there would be forbidden to pray to God. Yet God's Word records that Anna, a prophetess, prayed in the temple daily.


    Unless Paul is addressing the relationship of a wife to a husband. And this is what he is doing. If it were not he would say that the head of women are men. Not all men are over my wife, only I am. She is not under their authority.

    standingfirminChrist
    The covering cannot be referring to a woman's hair, for if it were, the verse would not make sense.

    1 Corinthians 11:6 For if the woman have no hair on her head, let her be shaved bald: but if it be a shame for a woman to be have no hair, let her have hair.

    meaningless dribble.


    Well said.
     
  12. trustitl

    trustitl New Member

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    DHk
    What is the "power" on her head? Is it "hair" or an actual head-covering. It is not hair; but an actual head-covering. If she is not wearing a head-covering she should be shorn. That is what the verse says, and it is not a custom, but a command.


    It is neither. You are ignoring what I said. I know you don't agree with it, but I clearly stated it. Here it is again.

    Originally Posted by trustitl
    Paul is saying a woman needs to be under her husbands authority, hence the use of the word exousia. This is what she needs on her head. If you want to have a symbol of that on her head go ahead, but don't get contentious and try make it a custom for all churches.

    Luke 23:7 "And as soon as he knew that he belonged unto Herod's jurisdiction(greek exousia), he sent him to Herod, who himself also was at Jerusalem at that time."

    I Cor 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered (greek exousiazo: verb form of exousia) by anything.

    I Cor. 7:4 The wife does not have authority (greek exousiazo) over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
     
  13. trustitl

    trustitl New Member

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    DHK
    If she is not wearing a head-covering she should be shorn. That is what the verse says, and it is not a custom, but a command.


    Do you or your church advocate shaving the heads of women who will not wear of piece of cloth on their head? You say it is a command, yet you most likely do not obey what it says according to your understanding.
     
  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    And you most likely do not advocate cutting off your hand every time it cause offense, or plucking out your eye every time it causes you to sin. Therein is the grammatical parallel.

    Headship is but one reason given. Have you totally ignored all the other reasons given in my previous post? If so why? What do you do with this one reason?

    1 Corinthians 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
    --There is a Divine reason. The angels desire to look down and understand about man's redemption, and the things pertaining to it. But you outwardly flaunt the commands relating to it, deliberately disobeying it. And the angels behold in amazement and wonder. After all that Christ has done for you, one simple command you fight tooth and nail against.
     
  15. trustitl

    trustitl New Member

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    You are not addressing the fact that Paul says a woman should have power on her head. You keep saying she needs to have a headcovering on and you go to a translation that fits your opinion to do it.


    Will you admit that your position about the angels is speculative?

    I think it is commenting on the fact that angels did not stay under authority and their example is what is being pointed out. The previous verse states that the woman was made for man because of this she is told what to "have on her head". "Head" is obviously being used figuratively in this chapter for the man is not really that round object on top of her shoulders.

    Your conclusion that Paul is stating that the churches of God have no custom of being contentious is rather strange don't you think? Do you know of any group or culture where it is their custom to be contentious. Being contentious would not be considered to be a "custom" by anybody. But in order to defend your position you make this rather strange application.
     
  16. standingfirminChrist

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    Just what translation are you reading?

    uncovered is the Greek word

    akatakaluptos

    It means unveiled. It says nothing of power.
     
  17. trustitl

    trustitl New Member

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    I am using the KJV. Below is a list of uses of kalupto. You will see that it is not necessarily a piece of cloth.

    Matthew 8:24
    24 Now, look! a great agitation arose in the sea, so that the boat was being covered by the waves; he, however, was sleeping.

    Luke 8:16
    16 “No one, after lighting a lamp, covers it with a vessel or puts it underneath a bed, but he puts it on a lampstand, that those stepping in may behold the light.

    Luke 23:30
    30 Then they will start to say to the mountains, ‘Fall over us!’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us over!’

    2 Corinthians 3:13
    13 and not doing as when Moses would put a veil upon his face, that the sons of Israel might not gaze intently at the end of that which was to be done away with.

    2 Corinthians 3:14
    14 But their mental powers were dulled. For to this present day the same veil remains unlifted at the reading of the old covenant, because it is done away with by means of Christ.

    2 Corinthians 3:15
    15 In fact, down till today whenever Moses is read, a veil lies upon their hearts.

    2 Corinthians 3:16
    16 But when there is a turning to Jehovah, the veil is taken away.

    2 Corinthians 4:3
    3 If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing,

    James 5:20
    20 know that he who turns a sinner back from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

    1 Peter 4:8
    8 Above all things, have intense love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.
     
  18. trustitl

    trustitl New Member

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    I found over 20 uses of exousia and none had anything to do with cloth. This is what Paul says a women is to have on her head.
     
  19. standingfirminChrist

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    kalupto does not mean power either. it means cover or hide.

    Where do you get power in the covering a woman has on her head?

    It is not there.
     
  20. trustitl

    trustitl New Member

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    I Cor. 11:10 "For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels."
     
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