What does BORN AGAIN mean?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jedi Knight, Dec 28, 2014.

  1. Jedi Knight

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    I am surprised at some persons view of what born again means or not mean "basic stuff". Some like to explain what born again means here ....clear is good! Are you born again if your NOT indwelt by the Spirit of God?
     
    #1 Jedi Knight, Dec 28, 2014
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  2. Sapper Woody

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    That was a tad bit incoherent, but I'll tackle your last sentence.



    Being born again and being indwelt with the Spirit are simultaneous, yet separate events. Being born again is the removal of sin from our account by the blood of Christ, and securing a home in Heaven.



    Simultaneously, the Holy Spirit moves into us, granting us the ability to discern things in a Godly light, and acting as a "conscience" in some ways.

    So, in today's world, since they happen simultaneously, the simple answer to your question, is no.

    Does that help? I tried to keep it as clear and simple as possible.
     
  3. Jedi Knight

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    Thanks,some may not understand still but you put it out there! If you read my thread about OT saints being born again You will get it. Thanks again!
     
    #3 Jedi Knight, Dec 28, 2014
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  4. Sapper Woody

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    Equal as in the same thing, no. Equal as in cannot have one without the other? Yes, under the new covenant. Under the old covenant, believers weren't indwelt with the spirit, although He visited some and empowered them; such as prophets or Samson.



    I've never used the term "Born Again" for old testament believers. Born again is more of a new covenant term.



    Old testament saints did not have their sins covered by the blood, and that's why the went to paradise (Hades, Abraham's Bosom, sheol, etc) instead of Heaven. They could not enter Heaven until Christ's blood had been presented to the Father.



    But, if you mean does indwelling equal a secured place in Heaven, then no. The OT saints did not have it. NT saints do.
     
  5. Jedi Knight

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    Ok so you say OT saints we not born again right?
     
  6. Sapper Woody

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    That is what I say, yes.
     
  7. Jedi Knight

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    Ok cool....I disagree but cool.
     
  8. Jedi Knight

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    Well it's double talk if you say it yes and no. You cannot say born again does not equal being indwelt by the spirit. Born of spirit or born of flesh.....your eather one or the other no third option.
     
  9. Sapper Woody

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    I disagree. It's not doubletalk at all. They are not equal, as in they are not the same thing. But you cannot have one without the other. When you are born again, simultaneously the HS indwells you. I wasn't using doubletalk, I was clarifying your question.
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    The New birth, regeneration, quickening are all synonymous terms. They all have to do with new life life, but not physical life - spiritual life. They all presuppose a previous condition of being without spiritual life.

    To define new birth is best accomplished by defining its opposite - spiritual death. What is spiritual death?

    The Bible clearly says that "death" entered the world by one man's sin (Rom. 5:12a) and death passed upon all men.

    So Pentecost is not the start of this problem of death and so Pentecost cannot be the start of the solution of this problem.

    However, lets further define exactly what this problem really is.

    God told Adam that "in the day" he ate he would die. However, he did not physically die "in the day" he ate as he lived physically to be 930 years of age. He died SPIRITUALLY "in the day" he ate. It is was this instantaneous spiritual death that brought on physical death.

    We too, are SPIRITUALLY DEAD and it is that spiritual state of death that brings on our physical death.

    What is SPIRITUAL DEATH? Paul defines it as "being alienated from the life of God" - Eph. 4:18. To be alienated is to be separated. God IS LIFE and God IS SPIRIT and to be SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED from the source of life is death.

    Hence, the moment Adam sinned he instantaneous was SEPARATED, ALIENATED from God spiritually.

    Now, that is the problem that the new birth/quickening/regeneration resolves. It is the opposite of being spiritually SEPARATED from God. What is the opposite of SEPARATION? It is UNION! Our "spirit" is what is born of the Spirit (Jn. 3;6) meaning our spirit is brought back into spiritual UNION with God or the source of life.

    Let me illustrate. You have an electric heater disconnected/separated from the wall socket. It is ELECTRICALLY DEAD. However, if you plug the cord of the electric heater into the wall socket it instanteously becomes ELECTRICALLY ALIVE. The difference is between SEPARATION and UNION.

    The New birth is being instanteously brought back into spiritual UNION with God who IS LIFE. Hence, spiritual union and new birth are one and the very same thing just as spiritual separation and spiritual death are one and the very same thing.

    Now, lets go to the next issue. Where does this spiritual union take place? On mars? In heaven? Outside of your body? No, no, and no. What is born of Spirit is spirit and our spirit INDWELLS our body. For our spirit to be in spiritual UNION with the Spirit of God, the Spirit of God MUST indwell our body as well or there is no spiritual union at all.

    That is why Paul defines indwelling of the Spirit as one and the same thing as being "in the Spirit" and if any man have not the Spirit indwelling within him it is because "HE IS NONE OF HIS." The only other possible option is to be "in the flesh" which defines humanity SPIRITUALLY DEAD - Rom. 8:8-9.

    So, regeneration by the Spirit IS spiritual union INSIDE you which IS indwelling of the Holy Spirit. One cannot exist apart from the other and without which one IS spiritually dead/separated/alienated from the life of God.

    Those who interpret Pentecost wrongly and insist that either regeneration or indwelling did not occur prior to Pentecost are condemning the whole human race prior to Pentecost to spiritual death. They are also demanding THREE different types of human beings; (1) those "in the flesh" versus (2) those "in the Spirit" (3) versus prepentecostal human beings that are neither "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit" according to their interpretation of Pentecost.

    God not only IS LIFE but God IS LIGHT. So to be spiritually separated from God not only means one is in a state of SPIRITUAL DEATH or separation from life, but we are also in a state of SPIRITUAL DARKNESS. To be brought back into spiritual union with God is not only to be brought back into spiritual life but spiritual light. Notice, how the unregenerate state is described as the absence of both spiritual light and spiritual life INTERNALLY:

    Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: - Eph. 4:18

    So it takes union with both spiritual life and spiritual light to reverse this condition. The reversal of this condition is described as an act of creation by God as in the creation of light in Genesis 1:2-3:

    For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. - 2 Cor. 4:6

    Hence, the "light of knowledge" that is necessary to bring a person out of spiritual darkness into spiritual light is not obtained by natural means or by what man can do but it is a creative act of God performed "in the heart." Remember Peter's profession (Mt. 16:16) of faith in Christ? Remember Christ response as to the actual source from which that profession originated?

    And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. - Mt. 16:18

    This knowledge that obtains a true profession of faith in Christ comes by a CREATIVE REVELATION from heaven "in the heart." Hence, a saving profession of faith is the work of God (Jn. 6:29) and thus a "gift" of God (Philip. 1:29; Eph. 2:8). It is a CREATIVE act of God (Eph. 2:10). No man is responsible for originating the profession of faith in the heart of man but it is the immediate and direct consequence of a creative act of God in the heart that calls into existence both LIFE and LIGHT due to spiritual union with God. They are no more involved in producing that creative work in their own heart than they were for separating themselves from their mother's womb:

    But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, - Gal. 1:15-16a

    The "new" birth or "re-generation" is a divine creative act of God and thus a miracle of God just as the physical birth is the work of God and in both cases you are PASSIVE in regard to accomplishing this work "in me" or "in the heart." They do not determine the timing of this work of creation any more than they were active in creating the time of their own separation from their mother's womb. Both births occur "when it pleased God" not when it please you or any other man (Jn. 1:13; James 1:18).
     
    #10 The Biblicist, Dec 28, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 28, 2014
  11. Jedi Knight

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    My I say that was an AWESOME explanation! Thank you very much!
     
  12. kyredneck

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    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1971799#post1971799

    “At least five positions have been taken on the issue of whether or not ordinary, individual members of the old covenant remnant were continually indwelt by the Spirit.

    Some scholars assume that a sixth position exists, but I am yet to find an affirmation of this sixth position. Here I will list the five real and one alleged positions, giving a brief description and listing major proponents of each."
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=74804&highlight=indwelt
     
  13. The Biblicist

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    You are very welcome!

    Circumcision in heart or the giving of a new heart is expressive of the new birth before (Deut. 5:29; 29:4) and after Pentecost (Col. 2:11-12). Jesus rebuked Nicodemus for being ignorant of this Biblical truth because he was a "master" or a recognized Bible scholar in Israel. Of course, this rebuke would have been unjust, and therefore a sin if the new birth was not a reality until after Pentecost. Furthermore, this cannot be interpreted as simply prophetic in nature as there are no future tenses used in John 3 but aorist, perfect and present tenses which demand it was present reality rather than some later prophetic reality.

    Also, salvation was never obtained by keeping the "old" covenant (Gal. 3:21) but by the "blood of the everlasting covenant" characterized in the cases of Abraham (Gen. 17:19), David (2 Sam. 23:5) and Isaiah (Isa. 53, 55:3) , and the gospel of all the prophets (Acts 10:43; 26:22-23; Heb. 4:2) which remains the way of salvation today (Heb. 13:20; Act13:34).
     
  14. Jedi Knight

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    Now we're having some real
    Theology!
    :type:
     
  15. JamesL

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    Biblicist's explanation was awesome, but wrong.

    It is an error to relegate Romans 5 to the sphere of spiritual death. Paul had already dealt with that, and in chapter 5 moves on to HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED...

    Paul went on to more mature teaching, not going back to visit elementary issues with stuff that disagrees with what he wrote earlier.


    Aside from that, regeneration is not "spiritual union" with God. There isn't a single bible verse that says such a thing. And, regeneration is not only for the spirit, it is for the physical body also. See Matthew 19:28 where Jesus uses that exact word of the time when He returns

    Paul later explains that the resurrection of the body will happen when Christ returns. That's when this physical body will "stand up" regenerated.


    I would also disagree with Sapper Woody on one point. Born Again is not a "covering". The blood of bulls and goats covered sin. The blood of Christ REMOVES sin.


    In short, regeneration (or born again) is a WASHING. See Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by His mercy He saved us, by the WASHING of regeneration and the RENEWING of the Holy Ghost


    This is why it is so important to understand the difference between the body/soul/spirit. There is a literal sinlessness inside of the regenerated man, otherwise the blood of Christ didn't remove and sins

    The Holy Spirit washes our spirit in the blood of Christ, and we are 100% without sin for the rest of eternity. That is, our spirit.

    That's why 1John 3:9 says the one who has been born of God IS NOT ABLE to sin. Forever perfected, literally holy, we BECOME the righteousness of God.

    This goes mush further than a simple "crediting" of righteousness. How is credit equal to "new creation" ?? It's not.

    Old Testament saints were credited with righteousness, but it was not literal. Their sins were covered. That's why (as Sapper Woody pointed out) that OT saints did not go to heaven when they died, they went to Hades (or Sheol)

    New Testament saints are washed by the blood of Christ. His blood does much more than "cover" sins, it removes all sin from our inner man

    But the body is still sinful, and must wait til the resurrection to be washed.
     
  16. The Biblicist

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    IMO the third through the fifth views are utterly repugnant to the very essential fabric of salvation. The "sixth" view I was unable to locate.
     
  17. Jedi Knight

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    No third option....much less 4th 5th ect. They were in the flesh or in the spirit.... New and OT.
     
    #17 Jedi Knight, Dec 28, 2014
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  18. The Biblicist

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    So, you believe the "death" which was "passed" on to all men was merely physical death and not spiritual death??? So physical death is the causation for spiritual death in your opinion? Look at the wording of Romans 5:12 and then Romans 5:15-19 where he repeatedly states over and over that the SINGULAR SIN of ONE MAN is the cause for the consequences of death, judgement, condemnation to ALL MEN! Are you restricting this to only men AFTER Pentecost?


    Do you believe that Ephesians 4:17-19 is an accurate and applicable description of the former unregenerate state? How do you define the word "alienated"? Would that term mean "separation" or something else? Is the unregenerated state one of SEPARATION from "the life of God"??? If so, what would the opposite be?




    Jesus is referring to the whole state of the new creation or the new heavens and earth free from sin. It is a world where he will drink with them.


    Would you agree the term "washing" is a metaphorical expression rather than a literal expression or do you believe in baptismal regeneration?

    Is the washing of our spirit in the blood of Christ, a LITERAL expression or is it a METAPHORICAL expression?

    God IS life but God IS light and to be spiritually separated from both LIFE and LIGHT is to be spiritually DEAD and spiritually BLIND. Again, look at Ephesians 4:18 and see if this "alienation" is directly applied to both alienation from LIFE (death) and DARKNESS? Is it?

    I say the reversal of spiritual death and darkness is by the LIFE and LIGHT of God and this union is METAPHORICALLY explained in terms of internal WASHING or removal of the GUILT of sin by the KNOWLEGE (light) and that is being RENEWED in the image of God (Col. 3:10; Eph. 4:24).

    Or do you believe in a LITERAL WATER being applied?
     
  19. JamesL

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    imo, those who hold positions 1 & 2 are altogether ignorant of the different between a goat and Christ
     
  20. The Biblicist

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    I would rather hear evidence than slanderous accusations. I hope we can keep this conversation above that level of conversation. Evidence please?
     

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