What Does It mean "Those GOD Foreknew He Predestined?"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Mar 25, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    What do the Greek terms used for Predestined and Forknew mean as used by Apostle paul in Romans?

    Is God described as being passive, active use here?

    Does this mean predestination is for ONLY the saints, not sinners?

    Does this relate directly to just HOW God saves us, by act of His Will directly, or indirectly as response to our Will?
     
  2. Osage Bluestem

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    It means in eternity past God elected a people to create to share his life and be a part of his family. All of history is designed for their edification and for His glory. So his plan was written. It is what we call reality.

    Those God elected he predestined to life on earth in time to sin and to have their sins paid for by Christ and to believe in him see the foolishness of sin and repent and be conformed to the image of Christ by being sanctified and glorified so they can take their place in God's family in his presence for eternity.
     
    #2 Osage Bluestem, Mar 25, 2011
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  3. freeatlast

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    What passages are you speaking of in Romans?
     
  4. Osage Bluestem

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    I'm sure he is speaking of Romans 8:28-30. That's a very famous passage.

    Romans 8:28-30 ESV
    28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
     
  5. JesusFan

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    You are indeed correct!

    What though is the BASIS of the foreknowledge referenced here by Paul?
    is it God passive way 'seeing" in future those who exercise faith in jesus as Saviour, or Him being direct cause of that faith?

    What does the Greek text say to this question here?
     
  6. freeatlast

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    One can certainly get from it that God has decided in eternity past who He will call and everyone who he calls will be saved, justified and glorified. That would be the hyper Calvinistic view. No one gets saved except those certain people who receive the call and all that are called get saved.
    However we know that is not correct because of this scripture. Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen. So not every person who is called comes or at least all the called are not chosen.

    I am going to stop there and let others comment until I see where this goes.
     
    #6 freeatlast, Mar 25, 2011
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  7. freeatlast

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    The Greek doesn't say. It is an interpretation of what is meant. The Greek can be interpreted more then one way. It could be interpreted as God knowing some would come when called and so he predestined those who would come to be conformed to His Son to be justified and glorified through the call. It does not have to mean that He literally picked out certain people and rejected others in eternity past, although it could mean that He did except there is a porblem brought about by the Matt. 22:14 passage.
     
    #7 freeatlast, Mar 25, 2011
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  8. Osage Bluestem

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    That's not the Hyper calvinistic view. Their view is that evangelism shouldn't be done at all. They don't believe in a gospel call only an effectual call. However, there is indeed both.

    The gospel call is given to everyone who is exposed to the gospel. Effectual calling is given only to the elect. That is the proper view.

    So God elected a people to create and adopt into his family and he has done everything in reality for His glory and for them.

    That's what Romans 8:28-30 says. That is foreknowledge, knowing who you want to create and adopt into your family. Predestination is decreeing that it be carried out exactly according to plan.

    Here is the Ordos Salutis: Election/Predestination/Gospel Call/Effectual Call/Regeneration/Faith/Repentence/Justification/Indwelling/Sanctification/Glorification.
     
    #8 Osage Bluestem, Mar 25, 2011
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  9. freeatlast

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    can you give me any scriptural support that there is a gospel call and an effectual?
     
  10. preachinjesus

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    29ὅτι οὓς προέγνω, καὶ προώρισεν συμμόρφους τῆς εἰκόνος τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ, εἰς τὸ εἶναι αὐτὸν πρωτότοκον ἐν πολλοῖς ἀδελφοῖς: 30οὓς δὲ προώρισεν, τούτους καὶ ἐκάλεσεν: καὶ οὓς ἐκάλεσεν, τούτους καὶ ἐδικαίωσεν: οὓς δὲ ἐδικαίωσεν, τούτους καὶ ἐδόξασεν.

    Seems straightforward...:type:
     
  11. Osage Bluestem

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    Indeed. Please read this short article from Founder's Ministries it will provide you with the scriptural support in the context of the topic of outward and effectual calling:

    http://www.founders.org/journal/fj40/article2.html
     
  12. Iconoclast

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    Notice.....it says for whom he did foreknow.
    God has set His love upon His elect.He loved them before the world was,He predestined them to be conformed to the Image of The Son.

    Anyone who denies this has an improper understanding of the gospel itself,as they would also be defective in their understanding of The Covenant of Redemption.

    To foreknow here is used in the same way it is said....Adam knew Eve,and she conceived.....Adam knew eve again and she conceived
    Joseph knew not Mary until after the birth of Jesus

    It speaks of an intimate knowledge of the person...see also Jer1:5

    Mt.22 says nothing about the effectual call. Those who deny calvinistic teaching generally do not understand effectual calling, or the other 4 pts either. If they did, they would embrace it as it is the truth of God.
     
  13. freeatlast

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    Thank you for the link. What I read does not give scriptural support to two different types of callings, but rather this writers personal opinion. In my opinion he has come up with a term or terms that are not supported by any scriptural text.
     
  14. freeatlast

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    It is true that it says "whom" but the whom does not have to be an individual as in calling a particular person. It can be "all those" who love Him the passage is speaking of because it uses the pronoun "them" which refers to the ones loving Him without suggesting He is speaking on an individual bases. In fact the word "them" would better been translated "these"
    In other words it can mean that what He foreknew was that there would be those who would love Him without defining who they are or suggesting that He is electing certain individuals to love Him.
     
  15. Logos1

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    You are correct sir!

    Feeatlast we are on the same page here. I’ve always interpreted it to mean the corporate body of the elect. Any individual can choose to accept Christ as their savior and join the corporate body of believers which is spoken of here.
     
  16. ReformedBaptist

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    Using Romans 8:29

    The term prooizo and proginosko are the terms used translated foreknow (proginosko) and foreknow/predestinate (prooizo).

    Prooizo is a compound of pro, before, with the verb horizo, to ordain, determine, and means to preordain. This term is not used in the LXX.

    "The NT uses prooizo 6x to speak exclusively of God's decrees. 1. Paul uses the vb. in Rom. 8:29 together with proginosko, foreknow (-->4589) and prothesis, plan, decision (-->4729), in order to ground God's call in his prior decree. In 8:30 proorizo is taken up again in order to specify the end to which God's dealings with humans are directed, namely, to justify those who are called and to give them a share in his glory. In 1 Cor 2:7 Paul speaks of God's wisdom that he himself "destined for our glory." God's predestination is thus described as an activity of his directed towards the fellowship of humans with him." p. 492

    "In Paul proginosko demonstrates the character of God's activity among humans. It assumes a personal relationship wiht a group of people that originiates in God himself. Rom 8:29 declares that those whom "God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the like-ness of his Son." In 11:2 the vb. expresses God's election and love of Israel, which oppses the idea of a final rejection of Israel." p. 490-491

    Source: New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology. Abridged Edition. Verlyn D. Verbruggee, Editor.

    I give this just in interest of giving information. I think Spiros Zhodiates' Word Study is also worth sharing:

    "In Rom 8:29, in relation to believers, proginosko occurs with the verb proorise, aor. act. indic. of proorizo (4309), to predestinate. Foreknowledge and foreordination are logically coordinate. The former emphasizes the exercise of God's wisdom and intelligence in regard to His eternal purpose and the latter emphasizes the exercise of God's will in regard to it. What He has decreed is what He has decided. This foreknowledge and foreordination in the Scripture are always unto salvation and not unto perdition. Therefore, it should be said that the Lord never foreordains something to be lost.

    Rather, He foreordains unto salvation those whom He specially considered and chose in eternity past (see Matt. 7:23; John 10:14; Rom 11:2; 1 Cor 8:3; Gal 4:9; 2 Tim 2:19; Sept.: Hos. 13:5; Amos 3:2). Any thought of the lost being appointed or ordained unto condemnation should be understood as an act of passing over in which the lost are permitted to suffer the consequences of their choice of sin (1 Peter 2:8).

    The salvation of every believer is known and determined in the mind of God before its realization in time. Thus, proginosko corresponds with the idea of having been chosen (eklegomai [1586], to choose) before the foundation of the world mention in Eph. 1:4 and logically precedes the action indicated by proorizo. Proginosko essentially entails a gracious self-determining on God's part from eternity to extend fellowship with Himself to undeserving sinners (Rom 8:29).
    -p.1216 "The Complete Word Study"
     
  17. ReformedBaptist

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    Contextually, I am not sure how folks interpret "group" without regard to particular persons. Looking at the immediate context of Romans 8, I find no such segregation.

    Let me ask you, do you not appropriate for yourself verse 28 individually? Is not He that searches the hearts and makes intercession for the saints do so for each one of us?

    Then why do you suppose that His foreknowledge and predestination is for some un-counted group? Am I not individually justified before God? Shall I not be, myself, glorified when I see Him as He is? Then why am I not also foreknown and predestined by Him?
     
  18. Logos1

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    Romans 8:28 should not be interpreted individually

    Obviously God can look into the future and know what someone will do, but that isn't the same as causing that event to happen.

    I would certainly say 8:28 is not to be interpreted on an individual basis though.

    For instance, when Stephen was stoned to death--it takes an act of perversion to say that was in his best interest individually. However it was in the best interest of the corporate body of believers, it furthered the spread of Christianity. When the other apostles in Jerusalem fled the city to escape persecution they spread Christianity where ever they went. By attempting to stomp out Christianity the Jewish leaders in effect help to spread it.

    8:28 should be viewed from the whole body of believers or Christianity not on an individual basis.
     
  19. freeatlast

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    Let me add a little something to this. I don't believe that God can or does look into the future. Here is the reason. I don't believe there is a future except what He ordains. If God had to look into the future then we need to ask who set the future because the entity that set the future would be more powerful then God since God would be subject with the need to look.
     
  20. canadyjd

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    Foreknew means to know in a relationship (not "knowing" as in knowledge). Predestined means to "mark out beforehand" (if I remember correctly) and refers to surveyors marking out property with boundary stones. So, God had a relationship with a specific people and marked those people out beforehand for something (salvation/holiness/conformity to the image of His Son).
    Not really debatable. God is active.
    Yes, only for saints, not sinners. No double predestination.
    By the act of His Will, directly.

    If man responds to God in election to salvation, it displays God's grace toward His elect.

    If God responds to man in election to salvation, then man earns (merits) his election to salvation by his own works, imho.

    peace to you:praying:
     

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