What does it mean to believe?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by stilllearning, Jan 16, 2011.

  1. stilllearning

    stilllearning
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,814
    Likes Received:
    2
    Take a look at this.......
    Genesis 7:17-23
    V.17 ¶ And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
    V.18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
    V.19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that [were] under the whole heaven, were covered.
    V.20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
    V.21 ¶ And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
    V.22 All in whose nostrils [was] the breath of life, of all that [was] in the dry [land], died.
    V.23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained [alive], and they that [were] with him in the ark.


    In light of this passage, there are lots of professing Christians who don’t believe that this flood covered the entire Earth.

    The only explanation “that I can see” for rejecting this passage, is unbelief.
    Not believing that God is capable of flooding the entire Earth and repopulating the Earth from only Noah’s descendants.

    Am I missing something?
     
  2. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with you, if you don't believe this part of scripture true and accurate, then how can you trust that Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead? I've seen floods before, I once was caught in one, but I've never seen a person rise from the dead.
     
  3. Tater77

    Tater77
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2009
    Messages:
    461
    Likes Received:
    0
    Its not really unbelief for some as much as questioning the translation and tradition.

    The phrase "whole earth" in Hebrew is "kol erets" which more often than not is translated as "whole land". The word erets is translated about 1500 times as land and only about 500 as Earth.

    So did the flood cover the whole earth or the whole land? Either way the Hebrew language of the Bible is right, but are we translating it correctly?

    I need to look into whether or not the NT word usages concerning the flood use "ge" or "kosmon".
     
  4. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,051
    Likes Received:
    0
    Don't equate faith for salvation with faith in a world-wide flood, nor disbelief in a world-wide flood with disbelief in Christ. It is not necessary for one to believe in a world-wide flood in order to be saved.
     
  5. glfredrick

    glfredrick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,996
    Likes Received:
    0
    If I'm not mistaken, the issue at hand is the trustworthyness of Scripture.

    People that have difficulty accepting something like the flood, or the miracles of the axe head, parting the Red Sea, etc., will also struggle with the more difficult issue of God becoming man, dying, then walking alive from the tomb.

    About the flood, it is interesting that virtually all the world's people groups have a flood narrative embedded in their historical consciousness. The indication is that there was indeed a flood event common to humankind that has been passed down through the ages.
     
  6. David Lamb

    David Lamb
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    2,982
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree, Winman, and your words, "I've seen floods before," brought another point to mind. God promised Noah that there would never again be a flood to destroy the earth. (Genesis 9.11). Now if the flood had been merely local, God's words would not make sense, and His promise would have been broken many, many times, because there have been countless local floods since Noah's day (including the one you were caught in).
     
  7. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,051
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good point- let me follow that up with this: before he saw the risen Christ, was Thomas saved or not?
     
  8. stilllearning

    stilllearning
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,814
    Likes Received:
    2
    I don’t know how Spiritually healthy it is, to be searching for ways to “believe less”:
    The Lord rebuked Thomas for his unbelief........
    John 20:29
    “Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.”

    --------------------------------------------------
    Certainly because of God’s Grace, we can be believers, while having some unbelief in our hearts/minds;
    But this is a condition, that we should be trying to overcome, not defending......
    Mark 9:24
    “And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.”
     
  9. glfredrick

    glfredrick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,996
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am not sure how we can know if anyone was "saved" at any given time in the Scriptures except and unless we are told. Thomas certainly did speak words of faith when confronted with the Risen Savior, but we are not privileged to see into his heart.

    We also see the entire band of disciples, including the remaining 11 apostles gathered in an upper room in Jerusalem, afraid to go out after Jesus' ascension. It was not until the giving of the Holy Spirit that they became empowered for ministry. Some might suggest that Pentecost is the beginning of true NT salvation, but of course that throws up other issues concerning OT believers who were saved by faith in the coming Messiah by looking forward, just as we are by looking back.
     
  10. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,225
    Likes Received:
    614
    How about believing correctly?

    11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

    So what about Tater77's point? Is the translation "whole land" or "whole earth"?
     
  11. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    99
    When it comes to the worldwide flood I am firmly in the camp of those affirming the biblical attestation.

    There was a worldwide flood that left water on the surface of the earth for over a year. Do I completely understand it? Nope, but then again I think it might be beyond our ken to understand the magnitude of a divine occurrence like this.
     
  12. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,225
    Likes Received:
    614
    Yes, of course, but what does the Bible actually say? What does "kol erets" mean? Whole earth or whole land?
     
  13. stilllearning

    stilllearning
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,814
    Likes Received:
    2
    A local flood, would not have killed every animal on Earth.
     
  14. glfredrick

    glfredrick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,996
    Likes Received:
    0
    "erets" is used extensively in the creation story of early Genesis. In that context, it is always describing the whole earth and is translated that way by all.
     
  15. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    99
    The Hebrew goes out of its way to note that the flood was over the entire earth. One cannot read the Hebrew without seeing that the author is clearly attesting to a flood covering everything.

    The continual repetition within verses 17 through 24 is the author showing that the waters were over the entire face of the earth. The mention that the water rose above the mountain tops by 20 feet (vs. 20) is additional demonstration of the world-wide nature of the flood.

    You have to go out of your way not to believe it was a worldwide flood when reading the text.

    Here's a great note from the translator of the NET for this passage: The first verb in the sequence is וַיִּגְבְּרוּ (btw this font is funky and I can't get it to show vav-consecutives well apologies) (vayyigbÿru, from גָּבַר, gavar), meaning “to become great, mighty.” The waters did not merely rise; they “prevailed” over the earth, overwhelming it.

    As a final thought I'm curious, where do you see the term "kol-eretz." Perhaps your transliteration is off a touch but the main term I see when I read the Hebrew is על־הארץ.

    Maybe I'm missing something, any help is appreciated. :)
     
  16. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,051
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with you. My problem with SL's posts are that he (at least) appears to be casting aspersions upon anyone's salvation who is not in 100% agreement with his interpretation of the scriptures.
     
  17. stilllearning

    stilllearning
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,814
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hello Mexdeaf

    Don’t you care at all, about people’s eternal soul?

    If someone’s lack of faith, “might” mean that they are not really saved, are you the type of person that pats them on the back and tells them that “they are alright”?
    --------------------------------------------------
    As a Christian, I “truly” care about people; Therefore if threads like this, cause people who have a lack of faith in this area, to doubt their salvation, than that is good.

    It’s none of my business, whether they are saved or not; but if they aren’t but think that they are, than attitudes like yours, will stop them from coming to the knowledge of the truth.
     
    #17 stilllearning, Jan 17, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 17, 2011
  18. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,051
    Likes Received:
    0

    Thanks for your concern about my concern. Let me tell you what I am really concerned about-

    I am really concerned about people who think that someone must cross all the right "t's" and dot all of the right "i's" to be saved when salvation is not a matter of what WE must believe or do but rather a matter of what GOD says and has done.

    A disbelief in a literal 144-hour creation, or a disbelief in a world-wide flood or a disbelief that any particular version is THE word of God to the exclusion of all others, does not bother me as much as someone who believes all of those things, yet is trusting in their self-righteousness to get into heaven.

    I'm not speaking of you in particular, but there's plenty of folks out there that I am acquainted with who would fit the bill.
     
  19. BobinKy

    BobinKy
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2010
    Messages:
    845
    Likes Received:
    0
    [​IMG]

    Sombrero Galaxy, M104 or NGC 4594, 29 million light years from earth. Read about the Sombrero Galaxy at the NASA HubbleSite




    [​IMG]

    Northern Cross in the Cygnus constellation. Clickable website of Cygnus Constellation at AstroJan's website. Closeups of all 88 constellations (observable from earth) are viewable at this website.




    [​IMG]

    Pinwheel Galaxy, Messier 101 or NGC 5457, HD Image of Pinwheel Galaxy taken by Hubble Space Telescope at SpaceTelescope.org.




    [​IMG]



    ...Bob
     
    #19 BobinKy, Jan 17, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 17, 2011
  20. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,051
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's awesome.
     

Share This Page

Loading...