What does it mean?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by percho, Jun 19, 2016.

  1. percho

    percho
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    διὰ λουτροῦ παλιγγενεσίας

    through, of washing, of regeneration

    Does that mean regeneration washes something away?
     
  2. JamesL

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    Yes.

    A human is comprised of 2 "natures"...
    spirit and body

    At conversion, the spirit (or inner man) is washed, cleansed, purified, sanctified, etc. The disease of sin in our inner man is healed.

    At the resurrection, the body (or outer man) will be washed, cleansed, purified, sanctified, etc. The disease in our outer man will be healed
     
  3. Van

    Van
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    Titus 3:5 refers to being reborn spiritually in Christ. The circumcision of Christ removes our sin burden, what God had against us individually, and we arise in Christ a new creation, born anew, made righteous, blameless and fitted for good works.
     
  4. JamesL

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    So after all that, is something washed away? Pretty much either YES or NO
     
  5. Van

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    "Washed" may be used metaphorically, but clearly the removal of our sin burden (what God has against us) occurs. So a "yes!"
     
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  6. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    Titus 3:5. '....Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us , through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.'

    This is nothing else but the New Birth, the birth of 'water and the Spirit' of John 3:5.

    For reasons why this does not mean baptism and for an explanation of what it does mean read
    https://marprelate.wordpress.com/2010/07/12/the-new-birth-4-its-nature/
     
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  7. Aaron

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    Under the law, and the Judaism practiced in Titus' day, purification rites lasted days, and were accomplished with copious washings and sprinklings. It's an allusion to the law, which Titus, though a Gentile would have known by his study in the Scriptures, and the spiritual significance.

    We are being purified, but purification is not our work (we have entered into rest), it is the work of the Spirit.

    That's all it's saying.
     
  8. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Hello Martin, just a quick question: doesn't the "and" imply there is something more than the just new birth?

    ;)


    In other words, salvation in Christ combines two drastic changes for thenatural man:

    1. He is made a new creature, something he was not born as, but born again as a new creature;

    2. He is brought into relationship with God on a spiritual and eternal basis (hence we say we are in Christ, rather than without Christ, and that His Spirit is the seal, the guarantee of salvation in Christ).

    So the "renewing of the Holy Ghost," is it not reasonable that Paul is clarifying how we are saved by speaking of those two primary elements of salvation? Which would make the renewing of the Holy Ghost a reference to, not the work already mentioned (the washing/cleansing of regeneration/new birth), but to the reconciliatory work of God in salvation?


    In regards to water, do we imagine that cleansing can come from physical water in regards to man's spiritual condition? Isn't it more likely that the cleansing agent referred to here...


    Ezekiel 36:24-27

    King James Version (KJV)


    24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

    25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



    (and sorry, went ahead and threw in this promise of new birth in its fullness)

    ...is the same cleansing agent spoken of here in these passages...



    John 15

    King James Version (KJV)


    3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.




    Ephesians 5:25-26

    King James Version (KJV)


    25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

    26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,




    1 Peter 1:23

    King James Version (KJV)

    23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.




    James 1:18

    King James Version (KJV)


    18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.




    ...?


    God bless.
     
    #8 Darrell C, Jun 21, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2016
  9. TCassidy

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    The word "and" is a connective. It connects two of the same things.

    "Regeneration" and "renewing" are two ways of saying the same thing.
     
  10. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    So here...


    Luke 5:18

    King James Version (KJV)

    18 And, behold, men brought in a bed a man which was taken with a palsy: and they sought means to bring him in, and to lay him before him.



    ...we are to view being taken with a palsy, bringing the man in, and laying him before Christ are all the same things.

    Here...


    Matthew 1:2

    King James Version (KJV)


    2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;



    ...Judas is his brothers.

    Okay, thanks for clearing that up for me.


    I would agree with that, because in view are two parts of the same subject...salvation.

    We cannot separate the two from each other, so the connection is evident.

    If the renewing in view simply refers to the work of the Holy Ghost in the believer, then this might support those that teach that progressive sanctification is necessary for salvation to be accomplished. This comes into conflict, though, with Paul's statement which clarifies that salvation is something that has taken place.

    He has saved us, rather than "...He is saving us..."

    We are saved, rather than "...we are being saved by..."

    Salvation here is tied to the appearing of Christ and His death. It is based, not on works, but on the mercy of God. This is something that does not usually come into dispute as having been accomplished in the past (the appearing of Christ, and by implication His death).



    God bless.
     
  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy
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    I don't think anyone can clear anything up for you. You lack the perspicuity to understand fairly simple facts.

    "And" can be a conjunction, a comparative, or an appositive. When used as a conjunction it can have the meaning of "along with." "Judas, along with his brethren."

    4th grade English. :rolleyes:
     
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  12. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    I can understand grammatical suicide when I see it.

    ;)


    But we can't understand Titus 3 meaning "...by the washing of regeneration along with the renewing of the Holy Ghost"?


    And that is the problem, Titus 3:4-5 was not written in English.

    Bible 101.

    :rolleyes:


    God bless.
     
  13. TCassidy

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    And there, again, you demonstrate your lack of perspicuity. If you will go back and actually read what you posted you will notice you posted in English and commented on the English word "and." :rolleyes:
     
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  14. Darrell C

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    And if you go back you will see I gave the links for the Greek.

    ;)


    God bless.
     
  15. Darrell C

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    Say, what grade is it that they have students use new words in sentences?


    God bless.
     
  16. TCassidy

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    No, you didn't. But nice try. :rolleyes:
     
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  17. Darrell C

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    Look for the blue words.

    2nd grade Art.

    ;)


    God bless.
     
  18. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    Well no, although I think we are in substantial agreement :)

    The New Birth is spiritual birth. In John 3, our Lord says, "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit" not "That which is born of waterandspirit is spirit." He has told Nicodemus of the necessity of a new birth (v.3). When Nicodemus shows himself to be totally dumbfounded by the concept, He graciously gives him more information (v.5). The New Birth, He says, is a two-fold operation: the washing away of internal sin and pollution and renewal by the Holy Spirit. Water and Spirit.

    You rightly quote from Ezekiel 36, though just about every writer on the New Birth who is not Roman Catholic or Campbellite does the same, including many paedobaptists. In the Shakespeare play, Lady Macbeth, having murdered Duncan, scrubs away at her hands which seem to her to drip with his blood. "Will these hands ne'er be cleansed?" she cries. No outward washing could wipe away the guilt of her sin; the cleansing she needed would have to deal with the guilt within. So David cries out, "Purge me with hyssop and I shall be clean; wash me and I shall be whiter than snow" (Psalm 51:7). The reference to hyssop shows that this is not an outward washing that he desires. He needs to be washed in the blood of the Lamb (Exodus 12:21-22). He goes on, "Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me" (v.10). There you are again: water and spirit.

    I work this out in much more detail in my blog post. Do have a read.
     
  19. percho

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    and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:39

    In what way was Jesus not glorified?

    Could, washing of regeneration and renewing of Holy Spirit, take place before the glorification of Jesus?

    Exactly when was Jesus glorified?

    1 Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    I have always thought we, are saved by, the death of Jesus plus Jesus being raised from the dead and Jesus being glorified again with the Father.

    Is that the same as, washing of regeneration and renewing of Holy Spirit or are the two different?

    How does, by grace through the faith, equate to washing of regeneration and renewing of Holy Spirit and of the death resurrection and glorification of Jesus? And being saved?
     
  20. Darrell C

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    I would think that it would still be a reference to two distinct works, the new birth itself, and that which takes place simultaneously with regeneration. I think we would have to agree on regeneration taking place, but the "renewing of the Holy Ghost" is where we would differ, though I will say that I do not discount or dismiss that the renewing can reasonably be viewed as effected on the believer, rather than my own view that the renewing in view is the restored relationship between God and man, and refers to man being brought back into union with God. Still something effected on the believer, but also speaks of that element of salvation that coincides with salvation, just as we see a distinction drawn by God in regards to what takes place when the promises give here...


    Ezekiel 36:24-27

    King James Version (KJV)


    24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

    25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.


    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



    The red refers to that effected in the one restored/saved, the blue quite distinct. Perhaps I need a grammar lesson on the "and" used in verse 27, lol.

    But if you notice, we see the same elements of David's prayer in the red:


    You say, "There you go again: water and spirit," but the spirit in view is not the Spirit of God, but rather David's spirit, in my view anyway. The term spirit is used to refer to the mindset of a man as well as the immaterial aspect of man. David's prayer is not here asking for the Holy Spirit, but rather that his spirit be made steadfast, as opposed to how he feels at the time of this plea.

    In salvation in Christ, Regeneration and Eternal Indwelling are the two primary elements of the new man. We can't have one without the other.

    And again, the "water" in view is, in my own view, a reference to the Word of God.


    For two reasons: first, it deals directly with man on a spiritual level, and secondly, and this I think is important...it occurs primarily through the indwelling of God. As it states above in Ezekiel 36:27, "I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes and to keep my judgments.

    Now here is something else to consider, brother: I think sometimes it is forgotten that this a re-birth. How is that significant? Glad you asked, ;).

    Birth is a beginning, re-birth is a recreation. New Birth is a resurrection of something dead, rather than the beginning of strictly something new. Man's spiritual death traces back to his beginning, his death beginning in Adam. Why this would be significant is that salvation as taught in Titus 3:4-5 should be kept within that frame, which makes it reasonable to think that Paul, more distinct than amyone other than Christ about salvation and its elements, is here providing those two elements for us, which speak about our resurrection from the dead spiritually, and our being renewed to relationship with God which was lost in the Garden.


    So are you spirit, or Spirit?

    ;)

    That which is born of the Spirit is Spirit, or...

    ...one with God, as Christ prayed that we might be:


    John 17:22-23

    King James Version (KJV)


    22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

    23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.



    Continued...
     

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