What Does Paul Have In Mind Water...?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by TCGreek, Sep 15, 2007.

  1. TCGreek

    TCGreek
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    In Romans 6:3, 4 What does Paul have in mind?

    1. Water baptism?

    2. Or Spirit baptism?

    I always thought that it was water baptism.
     
  2. charles_creech78

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    I think he is talking about a water baptist.
     
  3. Tom Butler

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    I agree. Water baptism it is.
     
  4. EdSutton

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    I think it is neither of these, but we are 'immersed', as it were, into the actual death of the Lord Jesus Christ, in verse three. The Christian 'ordinance' of water baptism, is a symbolic picturing of several real baptisms, IMO. These real baptisms pictured, in christian baptism, include this baptism into the death of Christ, the baptism in the Spirit into the body of Christ, and the baptism of Jesus, himself, at Calvary.
    In I Cor. 12:13, the DARBY, YLT, and ASV all render the Greek "εν" ("en") as "in", a decidedly more correct rendering, than the "by" or "through" as some other versions render this word, IMO.

    However, that is still somewhat, "begging the question". We need to look at the other verses that follow Rom. 6:3-4, to get a better picture.
    We are to "reckon" ourselves, as believers, just as 'dead' to sin, as though we had died, along with the Lord Jesus Christ. And in fact, we did actually die 'through' the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. We are likewise 'raised' with His resurrection, from the dead. That is exactly what Rom. 6:5-8 are saying, here. And we are to be found "In Him" as Phil'p. 3:9 tells us.
    Ed
     
  5. HankD

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    Don't forget the baptism of fire...

    ASV Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire:

    ...and the one who does this kind of baptism.

    HankD
     
  6. charles_creech78

    charles_creech78
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    Well I believe you need to be baptised by the fire first then you get baptised by water. He might be talking about both. Because you can't have one without the other. That is Just my thought on it. Being baptised with water is being baried with Christ. You have to have Christ first to be baried with him.
     
  7. EdSutton

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    I really believe you mean "buried", not "baried", here.

    But I do not believe one wants to really be "baptized in fire".

    There is a great deal of difference between the baptism "in the Spirit" (I cor. 12:13), that I believe is also in view in Acts 2. at Pentecost, where "there appeared unto them divided tongues, as of fire" (note the similie, and the fact that it specifically does not say "in fire", here in this passage), and being baptized "in fire", where the verses following Mt. 3:11 (and Lk. 3:16) say this -
    The ASV and WYC basically get it right here, by translating "εν" (en) as "in", What is in view is the "medium" of these baptisms, not the "agency". The Lord Jesus Christ does happen to be the "agent", in both of these cases, but that does not affect this idea, per se.

    As the fire is "unquenchable", I suggest that this refers to eternal destruction, not some supposed "spiritual high", here in this passage. More later maybe. Gotta' run, for now.

    Ed
     
    #7 EdSutton, Sep 16, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 16, 2007
  8. charles_creech78

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    So what are you saying that the baptizem of fire is eternal destrustion.
    The spiritual baptizem is of the Holy Ghost.Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed BAPTIZEd with water; but ye shall be BAPTIZEd with the Holy Ghost. Being baptized with fire is being batized of the Holy Ghost. Which we receaved after we have beleived.1co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one SPIRIT. Ga 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Ac 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth HINDER me to be baptized Ac 8:37 And Philip said, If thou BELIEVEST WITH ALL THINE HEART, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I BELIEVE JESUS CHRIST IS THE SON OF GOD.
     
  9. TCGreek

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    1. I can't really objective to water baptism pictures numerous prior realities.

    2. Whether we take en as "in" or "by," it all points to the work of the Spirit in this spiritual baptism. Consider:

    a. αυτος υμας βαπτισει εν πνευματι αγιω και πυρι (Matt 3:11, emphasis added).

    b. εγω εβαπτισα υμας υδατι αυτος δε βαπτισει υμας πνευματι αγιω (Mark 1:8, emphasis added ).

    c. αυτος υμας βαπτισει εν πνευματι αγιω και πυρι (Luke 3:16, emphasis added)

    d. ιδης το πνευμα καταβαινον και μενον επ αυτον ουτος εστιν ο βαπτιζων εν πνευματι αγιω (John 1:33, emphasis added).

    e. δε εν πνευματι βαπτισθησεσθε αγιω (Acts 1:5, emphasis added)

    3. Outside of Mark's parallel all the others have εν πνευματι αγιω.

    4. With the use of εν one can make a case for dative of sphere, "in water," but it can also be instrumental, "with" or "by," which I think Mark is reflecting without the use of εν.

    5. I don't think two different baptisms are being portrayed by "in baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire." Rather, there's one baptism as is seen in the use of εν, governing both Holy Spirit and fire.

    6. The imagery behind "fire" is one of purifying and judging, which happened with the baptism of the Spirit.
     
  10. LeBuick

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    Yes, one is not Baptized in both Holy Spirit and Fire, it is either or...

    I think Ed has done a good job in this thread. It is like circumcision, there is the physical and there is the spiritual. Many were circumcised physically but were never circumcised spiritually. Same with baptism, many have been to the water but has never received the Holy Spirit. This is how one can be a member of the Church but not be part of The Church (body of Christ).
     
  11. EdSutton

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    What I AM saying is that the baptism IN fire is not the same as the baptism IN the Holy Spirit, for the characteristics are entirely different. The baptism "IN the Spirit" is a once for all time, never to be repeated event. It happens when one believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, and hence is saved. I fully agree that Acts 11:16 is referring to the same thing as Acts 1:5, and I Cor. 12:13, namely baptism IN the Spirit. And as I said before, the Holy Spirit is the "medium", in this baptism, and not the "agent". The "agent" or "baptizing one", in "Spirit baptism" is none other than the Second Person of the triune Godhead, God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, himself. The Third Person in the triune Godhead, God, the Holy Spirit, is 'who' we are baptized IN by the Second person of the Godhead. The Son is "active" in this baptism (Jesus does this "baptizing"); the Holy Spirit is "passive" (He is the One in whom we are "baptized IN"), in this sense.

    And I also take exception to when this takes place, from what you have posted, as the above sentences should show. This baptism IN the Spirit, which places us, as believers into the body of Christ, the church, takes place simultaneously with another baptism, that I previously mentioned, our baptism into Christ, into his death. You have quoted one of the verses that speak to this in Gal. 3:27. Another verse, Rom. 6:3, is addressed in and by the OP.

    Another thing that also happens, again, simultaneously with these two baptisms I just mentioned, is that we are "sealed" with a three-fold sealing - by God the Father; by God, the Son; and by God, the Holy Spirit.
    It all happens at the same time. Follow me on this. There is no such thing as a "second blessing" that happens to one who believes. But one who believes can have an unlimited number of 'blessings, just not in the sense that there is a Spirit baptism that happens sometime later to one who believes.

    I once taught a three-part message of more than 50 things that happen to us when we are saved, when we believe in/on Christ. Took almost three hours and took three Wednesday nights. And I only touched on two of the five things I have mentioned, here. It could have easily taken two or three times that long, if I had had the time and opportunity to cover this in some more depth. And I am not a preacher, to start with.

    Let me suggest that one study this out. A child can understand much of Scripture, yet it is in so deep that the most learned theologian cannot begin to plumb its depths. And I am certainly no theologian, but do hope I may have helped a small bit.

    Ed
     
    #11 EdSutton, Sep 16, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 16, 2007
  12. LeBuick

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    So I understand Ed, you are saying there is a baptism by fire?
     
  13. TCGreek

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    1. There's no baptism of fire, unless we dismiss the first part of the expression, "the baptism of the Holy Spirt."

    2. The expression "of fire" must be understood in light of the OT use of "fire," for purification and judgment (Amos 7:4; Mal 3:2, 3), which is clearly seen in the ministry of the Spirit (John 3:3-8; 16:8-11; 2 Thess 2:13; 1Pet 1:2).
     
  14. EdSutton

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    Your illustration of circumcision, and comparing that to (water) baptism is a good one.

    And thanks for the kind words that I really do not deserve, but I still appreciate them. And I apologize here, too all, for not acknowledging them as often as I probably should. I don't take praise all that well. In fact, I may take criticism, which I try to allow to run off my back, like water off a duck, better than praise, but still appreciate it, even if I am still a bit taken back when I get some undeserved praise.

    Ed
     
  15. LeBuick

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    HHhhmm, interesting. I have always understood you can never count on the word AND since we know it was not in the original text. I took the fire as damnation instead of a purifying fire but I do see your point. I will have to remember how I concluded damnation.
     
  16. TCGreek

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    1. I make my conclusion not on "and" but the single preposition en, which governs "baptism of HS and fire."

    2. For example, John writes of "born of water and the Spirit." One preposition governs the expression "of," ek in Gk. Not two separate element but one element, conveying the cleansing of the Spirit in regeneration, and again we are dependent on the OT (Eze. 36 and so on).
     

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