Featured What Does Repent Mean?

I anticipated that to be your answer. I don't see all the things you've listed as the cause of conversion but the evidence. You see it as the former and not the latter.

 

They make Ritalin for that!

 

Hi Brother Kyredneck,

There are children of God redeemed and quickened in every nation, kindred, tribe, and tongue, " for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Rev 5:9). This alone disproves "gospel regeneration". The gospel preacher has not reached every nation, kindred, tribe and tongue throughout time as history tells us some tribes died off before the gospel preacher was ever able to get there. All the elect will know on this earth who Jesus is and the gospel, even those who the gospel preacher does not get to as the Holy Ghost himself can and does reveal him without the means of man (i.e. gospel preacher), "10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest." (Hebrews 8:10-11) also, "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people," (Revelation 14:6). The angel spoken of here is Jesus and the Holy Ghost who calls and issues the effectual call to His sheep by His "voice" (the preacher can speak the words of Jesus, but only Jesus can call His sheep with His "voice"). If such was not the sovereign method of regeneration one would have to conclude nearly all those who died from the time the "Catholic" church was created at the time of Contstantine up until the time of the Reformation eternally perished until Wycliffe printed the Bible and it later distributed to the hands of the laymen as well as all mentally handicap, aborted, etc (as has already been mentioned in a few prior posts).

With this being said, while not all the elect will hear the gospel preacher, all those who do will respond in faith and repentance to the gospel declaration as did all the saints in the New Testament. There will be no such thing in Heaven as say "an unconverted practicing Muslim or Hindu on earth" who was regenerated, but never knew the gospel or Jesus while on earth.

God bless and happy New Year!

Brother Joe

 

Why does Paul write an entire book on the subject of salvation (Romans), emphasizing that salvation is by faith (Romans 5:1 for example), but never that salvation is by repentance--not even one time in 16 chapters? Care to explain.

 

Amen to that! This I believe to be Scriptural, and I take note that Cornelius is an example. Scripture does not end with his prayers being as a memorial, or that he had done good (which shows regeneration, Romans 8:8). If Scripture did leave off at this point then there may only be an argument from silence which is a weak and invalid argument. Again, it does not end there, his full conversion was known through Christ, and to be through and in Him alone, and he was made aware of this fact in time; Acts 10:34-48.

 

Brother,

I know this was addressed to Brother Icon, but If I may add my thoughts. I don't think you and Brother Icon will ever agree on this as he is probably thinking of salvation as a whole that occurs in a time sequence with several facets some of which occur at different points in time (justification, sanctification, being born again, glorification, reconciliation, atonement, redemption, propitiation, pardon, imputation etc.). My guess is with the exception of the facets of sanctification and glorification, you being one who teaches gospel regeneration would maintain most all the other facets occur simultaneously upon the point of belief in the gospel, while brother Icon and most others on this thread would probably take the position that many of these facets of salvation (not including becoming born again, glorification, and sanctification) Christ actually accomplished via a limited atonement (not potentially accomplished as gospel regenerationists maintain) 2,000 years ago on Calvary via His finished work on calvary (for example scripture talks of the elect being "reconciled" when they were yet "enemies"). I think I understand what you are referring to by "salvation" (though I could be wrong) is when one becomes born again, and I do not believe the ones you are debating with on this thread maintain repentance is a condition to becoming born again, but rather an evidence and result of it, thus you are arguing against a straw man in my opinion.

 

Some Muslims and Hindus do good. Ergo they are regenerated. This is what you are saying? Salvation is by works. You judge people by their works. Personally I allow God to judge the heart; it is man that looks at the appearance which the Bible says is wrong.

 

No, not a strawman at all, but rather a fallacious view of repentance. It is a valid question. Why doesn't Paul emphasize repentance? In almost every chapter he emphasizes faith; salvation by faith. Faith is emphasized throughout the book. This is the book where Luther came across the great truth of justification by faith, and his life was forever changed. It was from this book that the Reformers based sola fide. But there is no mention in the solas of "sola repentance" Why? The answer is that repentance is the other side of faith. When one puts their faith in Christ, they are repenting at the same time. How can Christ become both Savior and Lord without a complete change of mind, exactly what repentance is. It doesn't need to be mentioned.

 

You need to go back and reread what I posted (if you even read the entire post) and what Brother Internet Theologian said Amen to. This is the exact opposite of what he said "amen" to. There will be no so called "practicing Muslims or Hindus" who were regenerated. All the elect to whom the gospel is preached will believe and repent upon hearing the gospel.

 

There is no salvation by faith that is minus repentance. Paul showed this by illustration throughout Romans, and this repentance doesn't only entail a mere 'change of mind'.

 

Slow down and re read what I said and you will see I said none of what you assume. IOW relax. Comprehend. Then speak. Or not.

 

No, your argument was a straw man.

He did emphasize it. But you need a proof text like *Romans 17:1 'I Paul testifieth that repentance needeth be emphasized'.

*It must be noted that I am using this as an illustration and for that purpose alone. Of course there is no Romans 17:1.

And what faith looks like which turns one from his or her sin. You've either missed that entirely or just don't like it.

Yes, his life was changed. He turned from his sin of hating God and of attempting to work his way to salvation. He stopped doing all of that which was a turning from sin.

You should already know why. Weren't you a Catholic? His argument from Scripture 'by faith' was an argument and reaction against the RC system. Weren't you bamboozled by the RCC? If so then you should know why he was emphasizing this.

There is no 'other side of faith'. No, it's the same side of faith, but there is your tendency to minimize repentance into a dictionary definition as you do when you say it isn't in the Epistles, which is also another of your shoddy teachings.

Really? How can you tell? By their lifestyle or by their mental assent to some facts you tell them?

Paul mentioned that he knew his entrance into Thessalonica was not in vain, 1 Thess. 2:1. He KNEW it wasn't in vain because of their genuine repentance noted in chapter 1, which included turning from their sin (context).

I know, I know, you have to see the word repentance to recognize repentance or you won't see its fruit. That's such a perfunctory and rudimentary understanding and approach on your part to the Scriptures.

It needed to be mentioned and was mentioned.

 

....and you say with such assuredness. How does someone like Naaman the Syrian fit into this dogma?

18 In this thing Jehovah pardon thy servant: when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, when I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, Jehovah pardon thy servant in this thing. 2 Ki 5

 

"There is no salvation by faith that is minus repentance."
Did I say there was?

Slow down and re read what I said and you will see I said none of what you assume. IOW relax. Comprehend. Then speak. Or not.

 

Yes, that is what you say when you don't have an answer or response to that part of my post. Still don't have an answer I see. You still have a fallacious view of repentance.

Really?? Then you do a Bible Study for me and demonstrate your claim. Go through the Book of Romans and compare the number of times Paul uses "faith" and "believe" to the number of times he uses "repent" or "repentance." See what what is emphasized and what is not. Don't make claims you cannot back up.
"You do err not knowing the scriptures..."

Seriously, you need to take some time and study this. Faith is intangible. It doesn't have "looks."
Secondly, you need to take some other person's advice:
Slow down and re read what I said and you will see I said none of what you assume. IOW relax. Comprehend. Then speak. Or not.
--I have already explained, and rather comprehensively, what faith is in previous posts. If you haven't read them you need to go back and spend some time digesting what I have already written on the topic.

True, but why? Not due to your fallacious doctrine of repentance, but rather due to the doctrine of justification by faith. You should read about it.

I do know. The Catholic Church taught "penance" not "repentance." You don't know the difference.
And you apparently don't know what sola fide is either.

Take my challenge. How many times is repentance used in the Book of Romans compared to believe or faith? "You do err not knowing the scriptures..."

How do you know that you are one of the elect? Who told you? How can you be sure? Perhaps you are being deceived by Satan? How can you ever be sure that you are one of the elect? You must persevere to the end, then when the end comes you still won't know for sure will you.
However, if I were to die right now I know for sure that I would go straight to heaven. Why? Because I put MY faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. And HE gave to me eternal life. It is HIS gift that HE will never take away. I don't have to persevere; it is HE that preserves may salvation for me, for it is HIS salvation that is a gift to me.

It was their faith that was spread abroad, not their repentance.

1 Thessalonians 1:8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.

Let me repeat what I said:

How can Christ become both Savior and Lord without a complete change of mind, exactly what repentance is. It doesn't need to be mentioned.
--It is of no significance that you mention it in your opinion.
It is significant that Paul pays little attention to repentance to the doctrine of repentance in the Book of Romans, but lays great stress on faith.

Being justified by faith we have peace with God.

 

...or 'secret believers' like Joseph of Arimathaea and Nicodemus?

 

I will answer this in detail when I get to the computer later on.
The way I understand the book of Romans faith is not the main issue in the book of Romans.
The main issue in the book of Romans is the righteousness of God .

the Lord Jesus Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth so it is not about faith.
faith is only the instrument that lays hold of the Lord Jesus Christ and that's a God given gift.

 

I didn't say what the main issue was. No need to discuss the book of Romans. I simply challenged him to compare how many times Paul spoke of repentance or even used the words repent and repentance as opposed to faith and believe.
If you want to discuss the theme of Romans you will have to start another thread.

 

Lol, REALLY NOW?!?

Romans 1:
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
4 who was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead; even Jesus Christ our Lord,
10 making request, if by any means now at length I may be prospered by the will of God to come unto you.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.
25 for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
32 who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them.

Romans 2:
2 And we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against them that practise such things.
3 And reckonest thou this, O man, who judgest them that practise such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you, even as it is written.

Romans 3:
2 Much every way: first of all, that they were intrusted with the oracles of God.
3 For what if some were without faith? shall their want of faith make of none effect the faithfulness of God?
5 But if our righteousness commendeth the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who visiteth with wrath? (I speak after the manner of men.)
7 But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God:
21 But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;
25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;

Romans 4:
20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God,

Romans 5:
1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;
5 and hope putteth not to shame; because the love of God hath been shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Spirit which was given unto us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.
15 But not as the trespass, so also is the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many.

Romans 6:
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 7:
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:
7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:
9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:
19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God.
21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.
27 and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
34 who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 9:
4 who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.
11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
26 And it shall be, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, There shall they be called sons of the living God.

Romans 11:
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal.
22 Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God`s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out!

 

Brother,

Hi KY. I was talking about in reference to the gospel times of the New Testament church. I do not deny their were born again believers outside of the Jews such as Rahab. By the way, please forgive me for my long post reply here, but this false idea of such things as "regenerated practicing Muslims" is a direct consequence to the belief of the false doctrine commonly known as “conditional time salvation” as advocated by the majority of Primitive Baptists that are of the old line faction and as such must be addressed in depth.. (The old line as you know are now far more in number than the "absoluter" or "predestinarian" Primitive branch). I will break up my reply into 2 posts due to posting limts.

One of the things that lead me to leave the old line conditinalist Primitives (whom I still consider my brothers in Christ and who taught me more perfectly regarding the false doctrine of gospel regeneration I previously held to) for the absoluter/predestinarianswas many in their camp that I associated with in GA would take "time salvation" so far as to conclude that as they reasoned their salvation in time was dependent upon their will. This is another false doctrine though Philippians says to, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." The very next verse says "13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" Also, Paul tells us, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10). The Greek word for ordained their means "predestinated", thus if God predestinated that we will walk in good works and we are "His workmanship" he will surely complete what he has finished.

Unfortunately some conditionalists Primitives I met even then extrapolated this idea out further that we carry out or own "time salvation" which leaves it in question, to conclude it was possible to have "regenerate practicing Muslims", or "regenerate practicing Hindus", or regenerates who would reject the gospel. They would base this on reasoning that since such individuals can have good works and say things such as "it only takes one fruit to identify it as a fruit tree". #1) There is no example in the entire New Testament of any child of God rejecting the gospel and dying in unbelief #2) There is no example of any regenerate in the New Testament of becoming saved, but staying in a non Christian religion all of which teach works salvation #3) There are many scriptures that tell us "belief" in Jesus is the inevitable effect upon a child of God and unbelief in Jesus is a sure sign of an unregenerate. "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (John 8:38), "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36), "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18), "And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not" (John 5:38), "But ye believe not, because ye arenot of my sheep, as I said unto you." (John 10:26), "He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believethnot the record that God gave of his Son." (1 John 5:10)

Perhaps the most clear verses in the New Testament that prove those who do not believe in Jesus are unregenerate are these, "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." (1 John 2:22), "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist" (2 John 1:7), and "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit ofantichrist" (1 John 4:3). Brother KY, when I discussed this with one conditionalist elder he actually took a stance that a child of God can be a nonbeliever as the incarnate son of God and God in the flesh, thereby being an antichrist, but that didn't mean he isn't regenerated! A “antichrist regenerated Christian” is perhaps the highest oxymoron term I have ever been acquainted with.