What does the full meaning of propitiation mean to us?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jarthur001, Jul 29, 2006.

  1. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    Some say the word should not have been used. Is it a good word?

    1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
     
  2. Blammo

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    I think it is a fine word. No need to correct the word of God.

    I think it means that Christ shed his blood for all. He made atonement for the sins of the whole world. And now we have "...whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

    Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
     
  3. Rex77

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    It means God's wrath fell on Christ at calvary, so none will fall on those that trust him.
     
  4. npetreley

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    Good definition.
     
  5. Blammo

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    Yes, good definition. Something we can all agree on. (I would hope.)
     
  6. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    I love the word. The word comes from a pegan worship. Some do not like it because of this. It is "to appease" the gods.

    "be merciful"... hilaskomai..has the same meaning

    The God of the Bible must be appeased as well. The Bible is clear about God being angry with our sin.

    Nahum 1
    The picture of the propitiation is shown in the OT. Once a year, on the Day of Atonement, the high priest of Israel would enter into the Holiest of Holies. He would bring with him a cup of blood from an spotless animal that was slain. He would sprinkle that blood upon the Mercy Seat. And that blood would serve as the satisfactory sacrifice for the sins of the nation.

    In the NT Christ became our high priest, our spotless Lamb and It was His blood given on the Mercy Seat.

    Heb 9

    Heb 9...
    Redemption here is a great word too. A ransom paid. We are now his..bought by Him, because of the blood. He owns the ones he paid for. This is why we can be sure of our salvation.

    Heb 9...
    I'll get back to this tomorrow....


    In Christ..James
     
    #6 Jarthur001, Jul 30, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 30, 2006
  7. Blammo

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    2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    Has Christ not purchased those who reject Him as well?

    When did God save you? Before creation, 2000 years ago, or some time during you life here on earth? Does not a sinner have to believe before the atonement becomes efficacious to him?

    I think you and I agree, we were saved the same way. Where we disagree is I believe salvation is available to all men, though only the "many" will believe. I believe God foreknew those who would be saved and those who would not. I don't believe God decided who would and who would not.
     
  8. Marcia

    Marcia
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    It was either you or someone else that posted this on another thread and I disagreed that propitiation in the bible is the same as appeasing gods in pagan worship.

    Appeasing the gods changed them -- the gods were volative and had bloodlust, so appeasing them meant you had to make them happy so they wouldn't strike you dead or bring some misfortune on you.

    Propitiation in the Bible through Chirst is satisfying the righteousness of God. God's nature does not change and he still has wrath on sin. It's just that the saved person is no longer under that wrath, but God's wrath on sin remains.

    I do not see the similarity between trying to keep pagan gods happy so they wouldn't kill you and satisfying the righteous judgment of God on sin.

    Too late to think more on this....maybe more tomorrow or later. :sleeping_2:
     
  9. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    Sorry...I had to post this before I went to bed..

    There is a clue to this in the little phrase, "Master who bought them" in verse 1

    In 1 Corinthians 6:20 Paul says, "You are not your own; you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your bodies." And Peter said in his first letter (1:18), "You were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers … with the precious blood of Christ" (cf. Rev. 14:3,4; Acts 20:28). When the apostles spoke of being bought or ransomed by Christ ...as Peter does in verse 1, they pictured us as slaves of sin and Satan, being purchased and made free from sin to serve Christ and glorify God. And the context in both 1 Corinthians and 1 Peter 1 has to do with sexual morality (1 Peter 1:14 and 1 Cor. 6:18,19). To be bought by Christ is to be freed from the domination of sexual passions. We belong to a new master whose promises are so superior to the promises of sex that (as 1:4 says) we can escape from the lordship of passion. When this happens we exalt Christ and affirm his worth. But if we live in the grip of sexual domination we belittle Christ and "deny the Master who bought us."

    There are some indications in the text that, in fact, the false teachers were propagating sexual immorality in the name of Christian freedom.

    Notice that right after saying they deny the Master who bought them, it says that their seductive danger lies in their licentiousness.

    This is called context!!

    Do you remember what happened at Corinth?

    This same attitude seems to mark the false teachers in 2 Peter. In 2:18 it says,

    In these false teachers arrogance and immorality go hand in hand.

    Notice verse 10
    They "despise authority" because they cannot stand any controls on their passions. This helps us to understand verse 1, where it says they deny the Master who bought them. They don't want a master. A master means authority and submission. But they despise authority.


    I hope this helps...


    In Christ...James
     
  10. pinoybaptist

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    It means Christ already became the Lamb of Calvary that paid for the sins of every man, Jew or Gentile, Roman or Greek, rich or poor, ruler or ruled, whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life written before the foundation of the world, and therefore must be preached as Reigning King and Savior of all for whom He authored and finished salvation, whosoever and wheresoever they are.
     
  11. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    Finished? Are you saying Christ meant what He said on the cross?
     
  12. Jarthur001

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    Let me be very clear here. I know of no one that would argue that the word propitiation did not in fact come from the pegan culture.

    hilasmos greek 2434..does in fact carry the meaning but is used only two times.

    1) an appeasing, propitiating
    2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation

    "be merciful"... hilaskomai..has the same meaning

    1) to render one's self, to appease, conciliate to one's self
    a) to become propitious, be placated or appeased
    b) to be propitious, be gracious, be merciful
    2) to expiate, make propitiation for

    Found here...
    Hebrew word kapporeth..

    1) mercy-seat, place of atonement
    a) the golden plate of propitiation on which the High Priest sprinkled the seat 7 times on the Day of Atonement symbolically
    reconciling Jehovah and His chosen people
    1) the slab of gold on top of the ark of the covenant which measured 2.5 by 1.5 cubits; on it and part of it were the two golden cherubim facing each other whose outstretched wings came together above and constituted the throne of God

    'hilasterion'... It is used here in Romans 3:25 where Paul says (literally) that God presented Christ as a propitiation or 'mercy seat'. This means that Jesus Christ is the mercy seat.

    The Mercy Seat did not derive its worth from the purity of its gold but from the fact that it was the place where the blood of sacrifice was sprinkled in the presence of Yahweh.

    The word for "mercy seat" is the same root for the word "atonement". It means to cover, cancel, appease, or cleanse.

    The word "seat" speaks of a resting place so the mercy seat was the "place of mercy or propitiation"

    Ex 25:18-20
    The cherubim represent the judgment of God. The blood covered the mercy seat that lay atop the ark. Remember where the ark was placed...in the Holiest of Holies. The Blood was needed for the sins of the people and the fact that God is Holy.

    Ex 25:21-22
    Notice this phrase...And THERE I will meet with you. "there" is the mercy seat.

    Salvation is in the Blood of the atonement. The Blood of the atonement of the cross was not a picture as was the lamb in the OT. Our LAMB...the Lamb of God..was placed on the Cross and His death was real and was the real atonement that was only pictured in the OT and it washed the sins away that very day. No other atonement will work. No other blood is needed. It is finished!!! The washing. The covering...is done.

    Lk 22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

    Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

    1 Pet 1:18-19 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

    Heb 9:11-12 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

    Heb 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

    Notice this...those sins are already atoned.."apart from sin"...when He appears.

    Dan 7
    Does all mean all? All means all ...nations...greek...jew...fat...skinny...tall ...short....black...white

    The atonement was a act of love. John 3:16

    Love never fails. 1 Cor 13
    The sins were atoned at the cross. This is love. This is the atonement. God said..."there I will meet you"..at the mercy seat. The meeting where the work was done and finished was the cross. The Cross is not a picture, for a picture is no longer needed. The blood of goats was a picture, but after the cross the picture is no longer needed.

    In Christ...James
     
    #12 Jarthur001, Jul 30, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 30, 2006
  13. npetreley

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    It is basically the same. The difference is that in most religions, man attempts to turn aside the wrath of his gods by offering animal, human, or other sacrifices.

    In Christianity God turned aside his own wrath by sacrificing His only begotten Son.

    There are other subtle differences due to the fact that our God is not like pagan gods, but the meaning of the word is basically the same.
     
  14. Blammo

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    I don't agree with you on most of this. Many subject changes involved. The point is, they were denying the Lord that bought them. Whatever you think they were doing, not doing, gonna do, or not gonna do, they were bought. Were they saved?
     
  15. Jarthur001

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    Indeed it is the same. And the reason as you have rightfully stated is the scarifice given. This again is found in Hebrews. God demanded a scarifice...Offered the scarifice in His Son....and Was the scarifice (In Christ the spotless Lamb).

    It works because it is God that can only please Himself. Pegans thought there was something good they could give to please God. Yet we KNOW there is nothing we can give...No goat...no blood of any kind. No money can buy pleasement. No works can make us right with God. The great I AM, the Self Exsisting One, being Holy in all His nature, sees our works as dirty. What will He do with our money when He owns all things? What blood could cover like the blood of Christ?

    It works because there is no greater scarifice for there was only one Son spotless Lamb to give.



    In Christ...James
     
  16. ituttut

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    Hello Jarthur001. This is a good time to ask are there any Calvinist here? Any that believes in "Limited Atonement", i.e. a "five pointer"? If so then they can no longer be a "five pointer" if they understand "propitiation".

    There have been some good answers. If you don't mind I'll put in my two cents, with perhaps a couple of points that haven't yet been made. I John 2:1-2, " My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    2. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

    I believe it helps to understand in God's salvation are three basic doctrines, viz. Redemption, Reconciliation, and Propitiation.

    Sin came so provision had to be made for the "redemption" of our bodies, so redemption looks toward sin.

    As sin has been identified in our bodies, next is "reconciliation " which looks toward man. God wants to reestablish a cordial relationship, so "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
    18. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    19. To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation," II Corinthians 5:17-19. So now we are "home free". But do we know how this happened?

    So to answer your question about propitiation. "Is it a good word"? You bet, for it fortifies what all in the Body of Christ know. "Propitiation" looks toward God from which our salvation comes. God is appeased, or satisfied, or "propitiated" for the work Christ fulfilled that was required to save all sinners, which is every one ever born of sinful man and woman.

    And what is this requirement that was placed before our Lord for "reconciliation" to come? Christ Jesus from heaven revealed this information to Paul for our understanding of how we today are saved. Through the faith of Jesus Christ, by way of the "mercy seat" we come, for God provided a "propitiation - atonement" by the sprinkling of Jesus Christ's blood on the "mercy seat". God sees Christ when looking at the "mercy seat" that covers the ark (coffin) of His broken Law.

    If we believe what He tells us today "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved", the saving blood is activated placing us with Jesus Christ at the Cross.
     
  17. Marcia

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    I want to be very clear: I am not denying that Jesus was a propitiation for sin or that there were blood sacrifices commanded by God as atonement.

    Also, the pagan origin of the word does not mean it necessarily carries the same meaning, so that argument is not a good one, imo.

    I can see the parallels between appeasing the false gods and the propititation of Christ, but I think the differences are greater and I think the similarities are more apparent than actual.

    This is what I was trying to get across:
    Also, appeasing the gods in pagan religions was man's idea based on belief in doing something to avert the gods' anger and/or gain favor with the gods, whereas in the Bible, God's righteousness required the blood sacrifice and it was his command to do this.
     
  18. Jarthur001

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    I can understand your point. My full post was not just to you. I was trying to address a lot in one post, before Church.

    I will agree that the meaning does not have to be carried over in full. Most of the time a writer used words like this...it was to relate to and show a clear picture to those he address. Yet the meaning is offten changed. It is in this case as well...For God does not have His anger turned away time and time again. Each time we sin, we do not need to have new blood shed. Once did it. It is finished....by the cross.
     
  19. npetreley

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    I don't see how you come to this conclusion. His wrath is turned aside from the elect, which is limited atonement.

    2. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

    This only presents a problem if you interpret "whole world" to mean every man without exception. "Whole world" also means every man without distinction, that is, from among every tribe, nation, etc.


     
  20. ituttut

    ituttut
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    You are talking about His wrath, and I'm talking about judgment. How did the elect become the elect? They believed God as they lived, whether Abel, Moses, David or John the Baptist, or we today, or those to be in the "tribulation". These before Damascus Road and after the "rapture are justified different than we, and I believe this must be what you are speaking to. If so, then you are of the "great commission" that was preached at Pentecost. They were saved "conditionally" as the shedding of blood of animals could only cover for a "limited" time, which we know was "one" year for the nation of Israel. If you believe the blood of Christ is no better than that of animals, then you must endure until the end, just as all before this "grace" dispensation of God. But since you believe in "limited atonement", Full Atonement cannot be accessed for His shed blood at the Cross was after all "limited".

    As said, if "propitiation" is understood, it's not possible to hold today to Christ's shed blood only having a "limited" duration, or being diluted allowing God the Father to see the sinner as they are instead of Christ Jesus, in whom there is no sin.

    God Love's us, so we justified are predestined to salvation. Some of us choose Him for the life is in the blood, and He is life. When we do this we know we were foreknown, and those that do not are also foreknown.
    It has to mean every person for He says it is available to all, but all do not choose to take advantage of the free gift today, and all did not believe God in the past dispensations, and all will not in the coming "tribulation period". If we don't believe the "everlasting gospel of God", then we won't believe what His "everlasting gospel" tells us to do, while we live, to gain "everlasting life".

    There is Power in the Blood, and today He'll Passover when He sees the "blood of Jesus Christ", and we are in the Body of Christ Church. This is "propitiation" found on the Mercy Seat, and if I understand you correctly you find it to be defective.
     

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