What does this statement mean?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Moriah, Apr 24, 2012.

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  1. Moriah

    Moriah
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    Biblicist said this in the thread The Freewill Invitation system is a False Gospel.

    Post #288

    Biblicist:"Your question makes no sense! Trying to answer your question only makes a fool out of God OR the one asking such a question. If God elected someone like Jeremiah (Jer. 1:5) before he was born and ordained him to be a prophet then the one who chose him is also the one who gave him physical life/birth and the one who preserved him from death to accomplish His purpose or else his words are silly just like your question is irrational. Paul says God chose us TO salvaiton THROUGH sanctification of the Holy Spirit AND belief of the truth so obviously the means are chosen as well as the person and if that person died then the fault lies with God as it is God who appoints the time of death (Heb. 9:27) which makes God the author of confusion and really denies He is God if such a thing were possible."

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1835467&posted=1#post1835467

    Is Biblicist or not saying that he was guaranteed to live until Jesus saved him?

    Does this not then mean that no babies and young children who die before knowing Jesus are of the saved? Thus, were they not meant for Hell? With Biblicists beliefs, does he not teach then too, that the severely mentally disabled are not of the saved, but are instead meant for Hell?
     
  2. Yeshua1

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    The Grace of god in the Cross of christ allows/provodes for God to apply untothe behalf of those such as infants/small children/mentally challanged his grace to save them....

    adults and teens accountible to God will be saved by the Cross, but will require them to palce faith in Christ!
     
  3. Moriah

    Moriah
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    What you say here does NOT fit into your predestination beliefs. Predestination of all those who will be saved is what you preach. You cannot clean up your false religion.
    Your religion, Biblicists religion, and the religion of all Calvinists teach damnation to those who die young and or disabled.
     
  4. billwald

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    Every person is predestined except those whom the Bible specifically states are reprobate.
     
  5. Yeshua1

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    What IF the Lord decided from eternity past to elect to salvation in christ all of those 'special cases", such as I listed?

    What IF MORE actually will make heaven by His election than if he would hvae based it instead upon our 'free will choosing" of Christ solely?
     
  6. savedbymercy

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    yesh

    This is salvation by works ! This statement actually means that one is not saved by the cross alone, but by one doing a requirement !
     
  7. The Biblicist

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    It simply means that God keeps His word. Jesus said ALL that the Father gave him SHALL come to him and that NONE the Father gave Him will be lost.

    You, on the other hand are claiming that God spoke ill advised because YOU claim that SOME of those He gave to Christ might not come to him and might therefore be lost.

    I will take God's Word over your word any time of the day.
     
  8. billwald

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    >Is Biblicist or not saying that he was guaranteed to live until Jesus saved him?

    If a person is predestined to be regenerated then he must be regenerated one way or another (pre or post mortum). This is not a useful factoid because God has not provided a list of the elect nor do we receive reports from the next life.
     
  9. DHK

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    Where do you get that from what Biblicist said, or for that matter what Yeshua said. You are putting words in their mouths, misrepresenting what they say, and that is lying!!
    For someone who does not believe in sinning you do a pretty a good job, Moriah. I am disappointed with you.

    What did he say:
    God elected Jeremiah and chose him for his service. God had a plan for Jeremiah's life. God has a plan for every person's life. Biblicist said nothing about God condemning anyone to Hell. You put those words in his mouth. That is wrong. God desires every believer to live to his glory and use their talents and abilities for Him. He has specific purposes for them, and he revealed what they were for Jeremiah. Is that wrong? Is God's omniscience sin? Do you serve a sinful God because he reveals his omniscience? That is the only conclusion I can see here.
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    Moriah is suggesting the foolish and moronic idea that the very God who appoints the time of your death (Heb. 9:27) would appoint it prior to His own appointed time of your salvation (Jn. 6:37-39). Look at Jeremiah 1:5 and apply that kind of silly logic:

    Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

    Tell God he is a liar! Tell him that he would appoint the death of Jeremiah before he fulfilled the prophecy that God says He knew before "I formed thee in the belly"!!!!

    Such logic either makes God a liar or worse yet the author of confusion so that He says He "knew" Jeremiah and "ordained" Jeremiah to do something "BEFORE" he formed Jeremiah was formed in the womb and yet appoint the death of Jeremiah before He accomplished what He said "knew" and "ordained" him to do!!!!!!

    Here is the type of logic that Moriah's soteriology is based upon!
     
  11. Moriah

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    I see the accuser is busy again.
     
  12. DHK

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    I refuted what you said, and this is all you can come up with.
    You don't have an answer for what I posted so you post offensive language instead. I pity you.
     
  13. Moriah

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    No, you are the one who is saying that YOU were predestined to salvation here on earth. YOU are the one who gave Jeremiah as an example of salvation.
    Your beliefs have no other consequence for those who die as infants, young children, and those who are mentally disabled.

    Your beliefs entail the damnation of those people I have mentioned, for you explain your beliefs as being people chosen by God before the creation of the earth, not just the plan, but the people for salvation. You do not say saved people heard and choose, but according to you, people cannot hear and choose, only those whom God wants saved are those who have salvation.

    So then, explain your beliefs, USING SCRIPTURE, why those who died before they were saved why they are still saved.
     
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    It is very difficult to discuss anything with a person who is irrational and you are irrational.

    The principle of your argument is that a person can die before God's purpose for that person would be accomplished. I don't care if you apply that principle to salvation, to service, to prophecy, to anything you like, it makes no sense and you are just too proud to admit you are wrong.

    I never have and I do not believe that God CHOSE anyone to hell. Election or divine choice is never once used in the scriptures in relationship to hell. What the Scriptures say is that "from the beginning God hath CHOSEN you TO (Gr. eis) salvation THROUGH....." Hence, He has both chosen the person to salvation as well as chosen the means to obtain that salvation.
     
  15. DHK

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    Moriah,
    the words: elect, predestination, chosen, foreknowledge, ordained, and all their derivatives are used in the Bible. You can't escape them. My advice to you is sit down with a Strong's concordance where you can see all the words and their different variations (the ones you don't see when you look up a word in a computer program), and study them out.

    Election and predestination is taught in the Bible. I agree that it is not taught in the same manner as some of the Calvinists are teaching it today (especially SBG), but not even most of the Calvinists agree with him.

    You misrepresent the average Calvinist and his beliefs on this board. Find out how these words are used in the Bible.
     
  16. Moriah

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    You tell me exactly what you are when you falsely accuse me. What is so irrational about YOU explaining why God did not give salvation to those infants, small children, and the mentally disabled? YOU are the one who said only people who will be saved are those whom God saves WHEN God causes them to believe.
    NO! That is what YOUR beliefs imply; they entail it. Explain away WHAT YOU SAID. AGAIN, YOU are the one who used Jeremiah as an example. You are the one who says everyone is predestined to believe. You are the one who says a person cannot believe unless God causes them to believe. Do not accuse me of something that I have not said.
    You see, you confirm that those people are condemned! Why will you not explain from scriptures, from your beliefs, what happens to those whom God did not cause to believe.
    According to what you say here, that God chose the people who will be saved, but you claim that does not mean the others were chosen for Hell is absurd! God is Sovereign!
    If God does not chose someone for salvation, THEN OF COURSE GOD CHOOSE TO SEND THEM TO HELL. Your beliefs have no other alternative.
     
    #16 Moriah, Apr 25, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2012
  17. Moriah

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    I do not do as you say. I understand the Word of God. Just because I do not believe as you and some of the others here, that does not mean I do not understand what they believe. Maybe you should pay more attention and find out what your beliefs and theirs entail.
    This is a debate forum. Debate the topic or I will just ignore your personal attacks for now on.
     
  18. The Biblicist

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    You are assuming that I believe some people are saved differently than other people regardless of their age and abilities when they come into this world. However, I don't have one way for some and another way for others. I believe all men are EQUALLY without ability to repent and believe in Christ regardless of their physical and mental limiations and regardless of their age.

    I believe the dying infant is saved the very same way that an adult is saved by the grace of God and power of God in giving them a believing heart.

    Christ paid for the eternal condemnation for the singular "sin" of the world or the individual act of Adam so that no human being goes to hell for Adam's sin but they go to hell for their own volitional choice to violate the revealed will of God through conscience or scripture. Since dying infants and mentally disabled cannot distinguish between right and wrong and thus have no ability to make personal choice they are saved by God's grace just as they were damned by Adam's sin - without personal choice.

    I believe in the logical order of God's decree that election follows rather than precedes the fall of man. That means, in Romans 9:19-24 that election is an act of "mercy" shown toward FALLEN man. That means that election was not an act of God exercised toward UNFALLEN humanity but toward FALLEN humanity. Hence, election follows the fall and therefore has nothing to do with the fall but with choosing some out of FALLEN mankind while simply ALLOWING the rest to FREELY continue in their own FALLEN condition.

    I will attempt to break this down in to a simple statement. Election has to do with God's mercy toward ALREADY FALLEN MANKIND. Apart from election ALL FALLEN mankind would freely choose to continue in their natural resistance and rejection of God and that is precisely why God says there is NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD NO NOT ONE, and THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS NO NOT ONE. God in perfect JUSTICE allows the rest of fallen mankind to FREELY continue in that mindset against God. Election is illustrated in the life of Paul who was on his way to kill, torture and imprison Christians because of His hatred to Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ INTERRUPTED his Journey and savingly REVEALED Himself to Saul of Tarsus changing Him from a Christ hater to a Christ lover IN SPITE OF HIMSELF and thus it was an act of MERCY and GRACE (Gal. 1:15-16).

    15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,
    16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:


    Read the text without the illustrative clarifications

    "But when it please God [illustration] to raveal his Son in me"

    When it pleased who? Saul or God?

    What kind of comparative illustration? Separation from his mother's womb? How did Saul choose or do anything to accomplish that? Who does Paul say did it? Him or God?

    What did God do? "REVEAL" his Son?

    Where did God reveal His Son? "IN me"

    Salvation is divine revelation empowered - Mt. 16:17
     
  19. DHK

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    I am debating the topic, but you are not.
    You cannot debate because you do not know what others believe; you don't even know what you believe, thus I challenge you to clarify your own beliefs by looking up these words in a good concordance and see how they are used. What are you afraid of? The Word of God itself?

    My beliefs differ from Biblicist's; I am not a Calvinist.
    Biblicist's beliefs are different than SBG's.
    SBG' beliefs are far different than either of ours.

    How can you intelligently debate anyone of us if you don't know what we believe, if we all believe differently from one and other, and our belief system is different. You yourself don't know what you belief as is evident in your own posts. They are contradictory.
     
  20. Moriah

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    You have a lot of nerve trying to tell me what I believe, after attacking me the way you did. There is a name for that.
    As for you saying I am assuming that you believe some people are saved differently than other people, that is not so. However, you come on saying I assume that, but then prove you do believe people are saved differently.
    Now, you think about what you have been saying about when people are saved and how, now tell me how that applies to infants, and please use scripture.
     
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