What Dr. James P. Boyce thought about Arminians

I don't think you have. I understand your point about "prognosis" even though I believe you are misstating your case and the meaning of the word. The lexical sourcess support me, not you on the meaning of "foreknowledge." But be that as it may, you have not asnwered the question. If God "foreknew the determinations of the heart" (as you said), and knew this in eternity past, then does that man have a free choice? Can he change his mind? What if circumstances in life work out differently and something happens to lead him to a change of mind. Can he do that? You must answer "No he cannot" or impugn for foreknowledge of God. Once you answer "no," you have taken away man's free will and you have a God who creates people that he knows have no chance of being saved (becuase the circumstances will not change). Therefore, God creates people intending to send them to hell. Yet that is the God of Calvinism that you deplore. The reality is that your God is at the same place, he simply is not in control of it.

I and many others have refuted your comments on Rom 9 many times in good conscience. You have misunderstood the passage. What else is there to say? You repeat your assertion that Pharoah first hardened his own heart when Scripture explicitly contradicts you, telling us that God made the first move. Rom 9 gives us the reason: So that God could show his power.

So he arranges events that he knows will produce responses, emotions, attitudes, choices, etc. but he leaves the choice to individuals?? Ray, that does not make sense. A choice is not made in a vacuum. It is made in the context of the "certain events in human beings lives" that God ordained. In addition, when you see "election" in regards to salvation, it is always before belief and is always of individuals. I cannot think of use of "election" in a context of salvation that has to do with events. It simply is not there.

 

I think you and I are on the same side here - It was connieman who said that free will=people boasting about their salvation. I sipmly said that Calvinists can sometimes take an arrogant attitude by being a "chosen one."

 

Then he has completely misunderstood the concept of God's grace.

I disagree. In more than twelve years as a Christian, I've never met anyone who believed that his salvation was "at least a little bit of himself". Someone who truly understands God's grace understands that God loves us not because of anything we've done, but in spite of it.
What is it that the hymn says, "Nothing in my hand I bring/Simply to thy cross I cling"?

I don't know. Sounds like a pretty good plan to me.

So, did you?

Mike

[ June 08, 2002, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

Yes, smokeater, I did...but only after I had been born of God, and had been made a "new creature", by the grace of God alone, and not of myself, lest I should boast.

As a sinner, in the flesh, I was not able to please God of my own boasted "free-will".

connieman

[ June 08, 2002, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: connieman ]

 

That's a total strawman caricature of an Arminian.

Do you really not understand that?

They don't boast in their salvation any more than you do.

 

Good for you, connieman. I'm more concerned that you came to the cross regardless of how you got there. Whatever the cause, I'm glad that was the final outcome.

I agree, but no one's suggesting otherwise.

Mike

 

Scott,

Sorry my mistake.

 

Sorry. I accidently edited this post instead of replying to it. My apologies.

But you have yet to produce one verse of Scripture where God says this. There is a vast difference between what you say and what God says. I have repeatedly asked you for a verse to back up this assertion that predestination is the result of belief. Prove your point from Scripture, not from your own mind.

[ June 09, 2002, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Pastor Larry,

He surely is in control of all individuals and future events within that which we call time. Don't all Christians believe this?

 

SmokeEater,

In the N.T. there is a narrative about the disciples complaining to Jesus that other follows of the Lord were not doing things like that elete Apostolate. Maybe someone can bring this verse to our attention. God is so interested and concerned over lost souls, that He is bringing in people in sundry ways, even though they might not match up to our favorite methods. Don't be too hard on other brethen in the faith.

 

If people have not trusted and personally believed in Christ as Savior savingly, we might really wonder if they have been adopted into the family of God. God uses our faith to enter this covenant relationship to Him. [Hebrews 4:2].

 

Hey Ray,

I'm confused. I thought was the point I was trying to make.

Mike

 

SmokeEater,

Sorry. At times when I see three names on a post I get the incorrect one. Hurrying I guess . . .

 

A couple of thoughts.

First of all, I'll be the first one to admit (and I have) to not exactly being an expert on the finer points of either one, but in all my years as a Christian, I think I do have a pretty good handle on grace.

Secondly, is it really appropriate for you to determine who does or doesn't understand, seeing as how you're given to making such wild and false statements about what people on both sides of the issue believe? It sounds as though you don't fully understand, either.

And last but not least, the passage I mentioned from Romans does refer to a specific group of people (in this case, homosexuals), not humanity in general.

Ray, I figured that was what happened. I've done it, too. The worst is when you're trying to respond to three people at once without stanrting a different post for each one.

Mike

[ June 09, 2002, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

SmokeEater,

You must have a home in New Jersey and Delaware or are you are sprouting wings and becoming omnipresent? Only my attempt to make you smile.

 

SmokeEater,

. . . . or transmigration of soul? Something like Phillip in Acts 8:39. This same Greek word, for 'caught away' is the same word used by the Apostle Paul about the rapture of the church in I Thessalonians 4:17. {harpazo} meaning to seize, catch away, pluck, pull or take by force.

Ray Berrian, Th.D.

 

I'm starting to wonder, myself, Ray. I'm from Mt. Ephraim but due to circumstances beyond my control, I'm staying in De. right now.

I didn't change my the location in my profile because I'm hoping this is only temporary and I'm not quite ready to admit defeat yet.

There's also the possibility that I may be moving to Florida before the summer's out so it may end up being Mt.Ephraim N.J./Newark De/Key West Fla.

That would allow me to confuse a whole new group of people.

Mike

[ June 09, 2002, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

Smoke_Eater,

Huh? I thought you were refering to Romans 1. Are you refering to another passage?

[ June 09, 2002, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

This is the point I have argued for from day one. It is you that has denied this. You do not believe that he is control of salvation. You believe that God is responding to the "free choices" of man. If you believe what you have written here, why do you spend so much time arguing against it?