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Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Daniel David, Mar 27, 2004.
What are your biblical reasons for what you believe?
You didn't state what you believe it means. I suppose that is so you can go on offense, not on defense. Anyway . . .
IMHO, The phrase may be awkwardly translated. I say this because there is no other mention of "times of the Gentiles" in scripture, and the word translated "fulfilled" which follows is usually translated "fulness" elsewhere in the NT. So it may be better translated "time of the Gentiles' fulness". Such a translation would make it more parallel to Romans 11:25, the closest NT equivalent.
So what is the "time of the Gentiles' fulness"? Perhaps Romans 11 is clearer--it is IMHO, the filling up of the church with Gentiles.
It's signifigance in Luke 21 would be that Jerusalem would continue to be trodden down until the Jews and Gentiles were put together in Christ in a church which is no longer merely a Jewish sect, but a separate entity. This would be the establishment(not the beginning, mind you) of the heavenly kingdom spoken of in verse 31.
Hebrews 12:25-29 is also parallel to Luke 21:25-28, again illustrating the signifigance of the destruction of the earthly kingdom (OT Israel) in order to establish the heavenly kingdom (the NT church--full of Gentiles).
"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh . . . and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." (Luke 21:20, 24)
The Greek for "trodden" is pat-eh'-o (#3961 in Strong's Concordance), and it means "to trample down underfoot".
Revelation tells us how long the "trodden down" shall last.
Rev 11:2"But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles : and the holy city shall they tread under foot (pateho) forty and two months ."
The term, "under the feet" has the meaning of triumph.
Josh 10:24 And it came to pass, when they brought forth those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the chiefs of the men of war that went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.
see also: 2 Kings 7:17, 20, 9:33; Isaiah 14:19
"under the feet" also is a metaphor for dominion, conquering, possession, judgment, shame, defilement, oppression, and victory.
Deuteronomy 11:24 Every place whereon the sole of your foot shall tread shall be yours: from the wilderness, and Lebanon, from the river, the river Euphrates, even unto the hinder sea shall be your border.
Judges 20:43; 1 Kings 5:3; Luke 20:43; Acts 2:35; Romans 16:20;
Here is what Dan Delagrave says: "The times of the Gentiles referred to the treading down, or desolation, of first century Jerusalem, which Jesus called "the days of vengeance". In other words, it was God's mission for the Gentiles to bring judgment upon Jerusalem. This is consistent with past judgments upon Israel, when God brought Gentiles armies into their land to desolate it."
Let the name-calling begin.
Jerusalem is still trodden down by the Gentiles. Since when does 42 months = 2000 years?
The following information is from Clarence Larkin THE BOOK OF DANIEL Copyright 1929.
In Luke 21:24, the phrase "TIMES OF THE GENTILES" refers to a period of time of certain chronological limits that corresponds to the time that the Jewish Nation shall be without a king. It is foretold by Hosea.
Hosea 3:4-5 For the children of Israel shall abide MANY DAYS without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: AFTERWARD shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness IN THE LATTER DAYS.
The "Times of the Gentiles" did not begin at the Destruction of Jerusalem in A. D. 70, but at the time when Daniel was carried captive to Babylon in B. C. 606, and will continue until Christ comes back and sets up His Millenial or "Stone Kingdom," represented by the "Stone" cut out of the mountain in Nebuchadnezzar's dream.
We must not confound the phrase "The Times of the Gentiles" with the phrase the "Fulness of the Gentiles," used by the Apostle Paul in Rom. 11:25. The "Fulness of the Gentiles" has no reference to the "Times of the Gentiles," but to the Gentiles who are being "called out" in this Dispensation by the Holy Spirit as members of Christ's Body--"The Church." When their number is complete, or FULL, then Christ will take out His Church, and the "Fulness of the Gentiles" will be complete. This Divine Program is outlined in Acts 15:13-17.
Click here to see a chart>> THE "TIMES" AND "SEASONS"
Ask any one of Jewish heritage when the times of the Gentiles began and when it will end.
When the Temple was destroyed, when the temple is rebuilt.
Larkin's commentary above shows his glaring dispensational bias--especially his insistence upon projecting so many prophecies into the far future and concentrating them on the modern state of Israel.
But, if indeed the phrase "times of the gentiles be fulfilled" is better understood as "time of the gentile's fulness"(thus linking it with Romans 11), then the focus of the verse in Luke shifts from "time", i.e.prophetic schedule--to "gentiles' fulness", i.e. the changed constitution of the people of God in the NT age.
Such a shift makes the issue of "when/if Jerusalem is no longer under gentile control" largely irrelevant to the Luke 21 passage. Then the issue is simply that Jerusalem will be under gentile dominion until the time that God shifts His attention to His NT people, the church.
Dispensationalists tend to see a prophesy of the future even when it is not inherent in the text (as in Rom. 11:26). It seems to me that the NT is much more concerned about the issue of the changed constitution of the people of God in the first century, than any perceived prophecies about the 21st century. But then, I suppose my partial-preterism is showing.
Just for the record, Larkin is a moron. Thankfully he didn't write too many books. Unfortunately, many even on this board are clueless to his ignorance.
DD, a true dispensationalist