What exactly happened on the Cross?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by The Archangel, Feb 24, 2003.

  1. The Archangel

    The Archangel
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    One of the major "Sticky" points of Calvinism is "Limited Atonement." It has been my contention that this is the most important point of the five. Discussions about "Uncontitional Election," "Irresistable Grace," and "Perserverance of the Saints" all flow from a limited (I prefer to use "Particular") atonement.

    So, Let us get to the heart of the Atonement issue.

    What I'm NOT interested in:

    1. Discussing Particular vs. General atonement (Although that will have to, at some point, play into most, if not all, arguement.

    2. Mudslinging.

    What I AM interested in:

    1. How is it that Christ paid for sins?

    2. What was actually accomplished on the Cross?

    3. How is the punishment for sin paid out? Is it a once-for-all payment or is it given out on a "sin-by-sin" basis?


    OK, I've given a topic---Now, "Talk amongst yourselves" (Mike Myers' "Coffee Talk" voice GREATLY implied! [​IMG]

    Archangel
     
  2. Yelsew

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    Under the Law, atonement for sin was made by the priests slaughter of unblemished animals, and the blood thereof being poured out as payment for sin.

    Under Grace, the Atonement for the sins of the world was paid by the slaughter of the spotless Lamb of God, and his blood being poured out on the earth for the sins of all mankind. A one-time-for-all occurance.

    Under the law, an animal was slain for the sins of a man and his household, Under Grace a divine man was slain for the sins of all mankind.

    Under Law, and under Grace, God established that which would atone for sin. Man had no say so in either case.

    It is not the slaughter of animals or man that pleases or appeases God's wrath. It is individual man's belief in, love and devotion for, and submission to the will of God that pleases and appeases God.
     
  3. The Archangel

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    OOPS! Premature posting....see below!
     
  4. The Archangel

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    Yelsew,

    While I think I understand what you are trying to say in your entire post, I must disagree with this statment.

    What is it then, that appeases God's wrath?

    If it is " individual man's belief in, love and devotion for, and submission to the will of God that pleases and appeases God. " then why is there any need for a sacrifice?

    I guess what I'm asking is this: On what basis does God forgive sin?

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     
  5. Yelsew

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    Confession of the transgressor! 1 John 1:9,10
     
  6. Pastor Larry

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    Yelsew,

    It sounds like you are espousing a moral theory of the atonement, that it did not really appease God's wrath. That is totally unbiblical. The confession of sin does not appease God's wrath. The wages of sin is death, not confession. Once God decided to save sinners, the death was the only way his righteous wrath could be appeased.
     
  7. Yelsew

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    Atonement pays the penalty for sin, it does not remove the consequences of sin. Confession of sin by the sinner is the basis of forgiveness of sin.

    To think otherwise is to say that God knows you are sorry for sinning and thus forgives your sin before you even commit the sin.

    Then there is repentance from sin. If one sins, confesses, receives forgiveness, then continues in the sin, has repentance taken place? NO, then why do you think that God has an obligation to forgive unrepented unconfessed sins?

    He has already atoned for the sins of mankind, yet mankind continues to sin. Why is that? Sin nature you say? Man's inherent sin nature is changed to righteousness nature for those who believe in Jesus. Even so, God does not stop man from exercising his free will, which includes choosing to sin or to not sin.

    Therefore it is confession of sin, for which God forgives sin.
     
  8. The Archangel

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    Yelsew,

    Do I understand you correctly? Are you saying that God forgives sin based on a confession of sin?

    If I do understand you correctly, this statement troubles me. It is along the lines of the Moral Theory of the Atonement. (Someone mentioned that in an earlier post)

    If you are correct, then why did Christ have to die? Could God have not "Written off" the sins of those who confessed?

    Why then, did Jesus have to die?

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     
  9. Yelsew

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    Do I understand you correctly? Are you saying that God forgives sin based on a confession of sin?

    If I do understand you correctly, this statement troubles me. It is along the lines of the Moral Theory of the Atonement. (Someone mentioned that in an earlier post)

    If you are correct, then why did Christ have to die? Could God have not "Written off" the sins of those who confessed?

    Why then, did Jesus have to die?

    Blessings,

    Archangel
    </font>[/QUOTE]
    There is a wage paid for Sin, and has been paid from the beginning. Consider the story of Noah, where all the population of the world was destroyed save for the eight humans who were in the ark. Why did God destroy all others?
    Paul tells the Roman Christians it is no different for us except that we have the Grace of God as the prevailing condition, whereas Noah, and Lot had the wrath of God prevailing. Paul said to the Romans,
    Jesus died to atone for (pay the penalty for) the sins of mankind, so that mankind would not have to die for their sins, for most assuredly God in his infinite Justice would pay us the wage our sins deserve...Death! Remember Noah, remember Sodom and Gomorrah where Lot's wife forfeited her life by looking back toward the cities!

    But now we can live because our sins have been atoned for by the Lamb of God. The sins of the world were not taken away contrary to what John the Baptist said of Jesus. What has been taken away is the penalty for sin...death! The kind faced by those in Noah's time and in Sodom and Gomorrah.

    Jesus the one who provided Atonement says,
    Jesus' atonement for our sins Justifies us, so that our Belief in Him sanctifies us...that is, marks us for salvation, separates us from the unbelievers - Sheep from the goats if you will. While grace prevails, whosoever believeth in Him shall have eternal life. No boundaries, no demographics, no ethnicity, and no religious dogma can prevent the one who wants to believe in Jesus from doing so! Even so, if you do not believe in Jesus, you will surely die for Jesus also said,
    All that is said to say Yes, confession of sin is the basis of forgiveness for sin. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. Jesus paid the price, but did not remove sin from us, but God provides those of us who believe on his only begotten son, the Messiah, the power to not sin of our own free will. But if we do sin, Jesus' confessional is always open to hear our confession and He remains faithful to forgive and cleanse.
     
  10. The Archangel

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    Yelsew,

    Wrong. However, I'm not sure you understood the question and that is probably my fault.

    The question is: How is sin forgiven on the cross?

    Or is sin even forgiven on the cross.

    Wow! This is maybe a hair short of heresy. If this, as you have said, is the case, why, then, is there a need for a savior. Are you saying that Jesus came to "Repair" the relationship?


    So then, you are saying that we were created so that we would die?


    It sounds like you have a much different idea of redemption than the Bible does. While, yes, the Bible does speak of a repaired relationship, it is not the only thing that was done--it is not the most important thing either!

    The most important things that happened on the cross are these:

    1. God's anger was Propitiated.

    Meaning: The righteous anger harbored by God against us for our sin was unleashed on Christ. The outpouring of wrath for sin was poured out on Christ who was standing in our place.

    2. The price for sin, Blood, was paid.

    Meaning: The blood of Christ was spilled so that our sins could be forgiven. This harkens back to the OT. Sacrifices. "Without the shedding of Blood, there is no forgivness of sin."

    After this, many things do happen--including the reparation of a relationship with God. However, that repair is based on something else. That repair is a consequence of Propitiation and Blood sacrifice.

    Any view of the atonement which dismisses the "Penal Substitution Atonement" is not a legitimate view of the atonement.

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     
  11. Yelsew

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    So then, you are saying that we were created so that we would die?</font>[/QUOTE]Where in scripture does it say that man was ever created to be an eternal being?
     
  12. Yelsew

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    Wow! This is maybe a hair short of heresy. If this, as you have said, is the case, why, then, is there a need for a savior. Are you saying that Jesus came to "Repair" the relationship?</font>[/QUOTE]Jesus came to fix what was broken. Man did not become broken, God is not broken, but the link, the relationship between Man and His God is broken. As a result man sins, sin destroys. God sent his son to atone for sin, thus removing the destruction. However it applies only to those who believe, for believers are the only ones who will accept the truth and be regenerated with restored relationship with God the Father.
     
  13. Yelsew

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    Wrong. However, I'm not sure you understood the question and that is probably my fault.

    The question is: How is sin forgiven on the cross?

    Or is sin even forgiven on the cross.</font>[/QUOTE]You say sin is forgiven on the Cross. The scriptures say that Sin is atoned for on the Cross. Atonement is not forgiveness. Atonement is payment for, not pardon for.
     
  14. Yelsew

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    1. It is not God's anger, but his Justice that was propitiated. For the wage of sin is death, not God's anger. 2. Agreed, the wage for sin, death (shedding of blood) was paid once, for all mankind, on the Cross. However, even today sin is not forgiven until it is confessed by the transgressor.
     
  15. KenH

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    Yelsew,

    Do you believe that man is born pure, without a sin nature, and it therefore capable of living a sinless life by his free will?
     
  16. The Archangel

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    Yelsew,

    Romans 5:12-14 says: 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, in this way death spread to all men, because all sinned. 13 In fact, sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not charged to one's account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam's transgression. He is a prototype of the Coming One.

    This passage clearly shows that death was not a part of man's original make-up. Death is a result of sin. The above passages makes that clear.

    Of course God was not "broken." However, man was. Why would there be a need for a "New Adam" if he wasn't? Again, the above Romans passage shows, clearly, that man was "broken" as a result of the fall.

    This misunderstanding is a result of the different ideas we have about the atonement. As a firm believer in a Particular Atonement, sin is paid for on the cross allowing the person(s) in whose place Christ stood to have forgivness of sin. I whole-heartedly agree that atonement is payment for sin. Sin is never "pardoned." It always requires a payment. I'm sorry for the confusion--I could have stated things better.

    This is not exactly accurate. God's justice required a payment for sin. However, propitiation is defined as: "The removal of us from the wrath of God that we deserved, Christ died as a propitiation for our sins. "In this is love, not that we loved God, but the He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins" (1 John 4:10 NASB) Quoted from: Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology, (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1994) 580.

    If sin is not forgiven until confessed, then how is the atoning work of Christ applied? Does He need to die again after each sin is confessed? What about the Christian that has a bad day and cusses out a lady in traffic and then gets hit by a bus before he can confess his sin? Does he go to hell?

    Or is it the case that while Christ was on the cross, God took all the sins of those who would be saved and placed them on Christ and then punished Christ (by inflicting His righteous and justified wrath on Him) and shed His blood to pay for them thereby granting us forgivness based on Christ's work?

    The latter must be the case. The Cross was a once-for-all event. It is never meant to be repeated. How is it, then, that sins are not forgiven before the confession.

    Please understand: I am not saying that we do not need to confess. Confession is a vital part of the Christian life. However, when a Christian sins, his legal standing or justification before God does not change. Confession restores a tarnished relationship with God but it does not forgive sins on a piece-by-piece basis.

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     
  17. russell55

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    Actually, atonement and forgiveness are really related. The Hebrew word kaphar (make an atonement) is sometimes translated "forgive" or "forgiven".

    But anyway, the grounds for our forgiveness is Christ's atoning sacrifice on the cross:

    </font>
    • Ephesians 4:32--"...forgiving one another, just as God in Christ has forgiven you." It is through Christ's work that we are forgiven by God.</font>
    • Colossians 2:13, 14--"...having forgiven all our transgressions, having cancelled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." Our forgiveness for our transgressions arises because the certificate of debt against us is nailed to the cross</font>
    • Ephesians 1:7--"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses...." Once again, the redemption we have through Christ is tied to the forgiveness of our sins.</font>
    • Colossians 1:14--"In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." Redemption, which we get through Christ's blood is is equated with the forgiveness of sins.</font>
    • Hebrews 9:22--"...without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness..." Shedding of blood is necessary for God to forgive.</font>

    Well yes, it is God's justice that is propitated, but what we justly deserve is God's wrath, and propitiation takes care of that for us. We are reconciled by the cross--and it is not just we who are reconciled to God; but God, through the removal of His wrath, is also reconciled to us.

    </font>
    • Romans 5:9, 10--"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." Christ's atoning work on the cross is what saves us from God's wrath. It is what reconciles us to God.</font>
    • 1 Thessalonians 1:10--"...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come." It is Jesus's work that delivers us from the wrath to come--the wrath of God that proceeds from the justice of God.</font>

    [ March 02, 2003, 12:17 AM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
     
  18. Yelsew

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    You agreed in your post that Atonement is the payment for sin. Payment for sin is not forgiveness of sin! Going to prison is Payment for a Crime, "do the crime do the time", that is payment. Paying for a traffic ticket is not forgiveness for the violation. However, if the officer stops you for a violation, and finds you remorseful for having committed the violation, he may let you off without citing you, that is forgiveness of a "sin", because you did not have to pay for it.
    Well you almost got it right until you used the words "granting us forgiveness". Just because you don't have to pay for your sins is no reason to think that your sins are forgiven. You are still faced with having to confess them to the one who paid for them. 1 John 1:9
    I answered that above. your sins are paid for by the once for all atonement of Jesus on the Cross. It is to him that you must confess the sins that He paid for.
    Unconfessed sins are Unforgiven sins. 2000 years ago, Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty for the sins you do today. Though you are not held accountable for making payment, you remain guilty of sin. Sin is unrighteousness! Therefore, the only way to remove that unrighteousness, guilt, is to confess your sins so that they can be forgiven thus cleansing you from all unrighteousness 1 John 1:8-10
     
  19. russell55

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    I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you feel free to make up your own atonement theories, too.

    If payment is made for your sins, then your debt for those sins is cancelled. Having your debt cancelled is what the word "forgiveness" means. If you don't believe me, look it up somewhere (not in Websters, but in a concordance or lexicon or Vines or something like that). Or look at the Lord's prayer: "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors."

    If you are not held accountable (your word) for something, then your debt is remitted or forgiven.
     
  20. The Archangel

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    Yelsew,

    Christ's atonement is the payment (or perhaps better--the Satisfaction) for my sin. Yes, I agree with this.

    Our forgivness is based on someone else's payment--namely Christ's payment.

    God does not forgive sin. He cannot. To do so would mean that He is unjust--sin requires a payment. However, God forgives sinners based on the substitution of Christ.

    This is nutty. If sins are paid for by Christ, which I think we both agree that happened, then what is there left to be paid? If, as the Bible says, God removes our sin as far as the east is from the west, how can He not forgive the sin?

    Are you saying your "Confession" is the work you (we) have to do to be forgiven? This is heresy. This is salvation by grace and works.

    This goes against soooo many Biblical passages, I frankly don't know where to start.

    I would humbly suggest you do some reading on the atonement. Your view of it is quite warped. (I don't say that flippantly or meanly, it is an honest suggestion. Please don't be offended.)

    It would seem that russell55 is on the right track when he says I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you feel free to make up your own atonement theories, too.

    If you'd like the recomendation of some books, let me know, I'd be glad to suggest some of them to you.

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     

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