What exactly is the difference ....

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by ktn4eg, Oct 16, 2014.

  1. ktn4eg

    ktn4eg
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    .... between a person's spirit and a person's soul?

    Are there any Bible passages that tell us what this difference is?
     
  2. Greektim

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    Not that it will matter much in the discussion, but part of this question must be how much neo-platonic dualism has influenced our theology. We are so oriented to think of a natural and supernatural world, that people speak of the soul or spirit in those terms. I don't even know what tripartite people believe. I lean more that my soul is my conscious self.
     
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    First, man is made of two aspects - material and immaterial.

    Second the immaterial aspect (spirit in regard to essence) is distinguished between "spirit" and "soul" and the Bible does distinguish between them - 1 Thes. 5:23; Heb. 4:12

    Third, the Greek term psueche is translated (1) soul; (2) life, as the soul is the conscious self which is made manifest in your daily life ("as a man thinketh in his heart so is he"). The term "soul" is used interchangably with "mind" and "heart", as the conscious self is inclusive of intellect and emotions - both of which control the will. There are two Greek terms that express the will either under the control of the mind (boulomai) or under the contol of the emotions (thelomai).

    fourth, the spirit is described either "dead" or "quickened and thus is the object of the new birth (Jn. 3:6). In contrast to the soul (self-consciousness), the spirit seems to be that aspect of man that is other world consciousness, whereas the body is outer world consciousness. I believe it is that aspect of human nature where the faculties of intuition (direct knowledge), spiritual communion and conscience resides. The new birth cleanses this aspect of human nature which serves as the inner sanctuary for the indwelling Spirit, and thus our spirit bears witness with His Spirit. Here is where Jesus was "pressed in the spirit" etc.

    In salvation, this three-fold division is the object of a threefold salvation, (1) Past tense - regeneration of the spirit - saved; (2) Progressive sanctification of the soul - present tense - being saved; (3) glorification of the body - future tense "saved"

    The present tense salvation of the soul, the conscious self is the battle ground between indwelling sin in the body and the inward created new man (the spirit). The soul overcomes as the "righteousness and true holiness" of the new creature (regenerated spirit) is "put on" in the soul (mind, heart) and then expressed by the power of the indwelling Spirit in our actions.
     
  4. percho

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    God formed, from the dust of the earth, elements shall we say, the flesh and blood man and breathed into that formed from the, elements, dust of the ground shall we say the spirit, life of the man that was then in him. That formed from the elements, dust of the earth, as flesh and blood with spirit from God, life circulating in the blood to the cells. That formed from the dust of the earth, elements plus life, spirit from God in him became a living soul. The living soul could through the five senses could then begin to accumulate knowledge and form personality.

    Adam was the figure of him to come. Rom 5:14 a living soul. Jesus when born of the virgin Mary; Luke 2:52 Jesus grew in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God. He had the spirit (life) of man in him and he had been conceived by the Spirit and he was Holy.

    Hanging upon the cross, Jesus gave his life a ransom for many, he commended his spirit, life, into the hands of his Father. The flesh with the spirit id dead. Jesus was dead. Jesus at that moment, quit growing in wisdom and stature. Jesus was no longer a living soul. His spirit, that which had given him life returned to God who gave it. His flesh without life, formed from the dust of the ground hung on the cross and was later put in a tomb. His soul no longer, growing in wisdom and creating new personality was in Hades, the heart of the earth, the lowest parts of the earth for three days and three nights.

    That is my understanding of the spirit of man that is in him and man, the living soul.
     
  5. percho

    percho
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    πνεῦμα
    From πνέω (G4154)
    Transliteration
    pneuma
    KJV Translation Count — Total: 385x
    The KJV translates Strongs G4151 in the following manner: Spirit (111x), Holy Ghost (89x), Spirit (of God) (13x), Spirit (of the Lord) (5x), (My) Spirit (3x), Spirit (of truth) (3x), Spirit (of Christ) (2x), human (spirit) (49x), (evil) spirit (47x), spirit (general) (26x), spirit (8x), (Jesus' own) spirit (6x), (Jesus' own) ghost (2x), misc (21x).


    I do not see the word soul anywhere there.


    Soul
    πνεῦμα
    ψυχή
    From ψύχω (G5594)
    KJV Translation Count — Total: 105x
    The KJV translates Strongs G5590 in the following manner: soul (58x), life (40x), mind (3x), heart (1x), heartily (with G1537) (1x), not tr (2x).


    I believe for the soul to have life it needs both a body and spirit, life.
     
    #5 percho, Oct 17, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 17, 2014
  6. The Biblicist

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    Your problem is that both the words "soul" and "spirit" are attributed to God also, who has no body, no blood, no wind, but able to exist in or outside of a physical body as shown by the incarnation. Hence, the terms "soul" and "spirit" are not dependent upon a physical body for existence. We are made in that image.

    Man is more than Biological life which animals share in common with man. The trouble with JW's, SDA's and other cults is that they demand that "spirit" and "soul" be interpreted by PARTIAL Biblical evidence that relates only to physical biological life, when the Bible provides more evidence that man is designed in the "image" of God who also shares a common SPIRITUAL likeness as the words "soul" and "spirit" are applied to God's nature as well but WITHOUT BIOLOGICAL PHYSICAL LIFE. No "wind" no "blood" and no "body" but still a "soul" and "spirit."

    Those who
     
  7. HankD

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    Body/soma - earth/material world awareness

    Soul/psuche - self awareness

    Spirit/pnuema - God awareness


    HankD
     
  8. The Biblicist

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    Exactly!:applause:
     
  9. JamesL

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    I don't get it. Awareness?
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    The human body is the vehicle for soul expression to the outside world. The body is designed to interact with the outer world (five senses, appetites). Hence, the Body provides us with outerworld consciousness. Hence it is the seat of outerworld consciousness.

    The "soul" is interchangably used with "mind" and "heart" and describes the self-conscious aspect of our nature. Our personality is a mental, feeling, willing consciousness - hence the soul is the seat of self-consciousness. This is the battle ground between indwelling sin and the indwelling Spirit that indwells the new nature, which is "created in righteousness and TRUE holiness."

    The "spirit" has to do with those things we cannot control consciously. For example, the soul can learn by applying itself to reading, observing etc. However, knowledge by direct knowledge or revelation does not come through the activity of the soul. For example, the conscience many times condemns the activity of the soul and the soul does not like it, showing the conscience is not under the control of the soul although the soul can eventually ignore and harden itself to the conscience. For example, it is the spirit that is in union with the spirit world. It is the place of communion with the spirit world. It is where demons take up control over the soul and body. In a saved person it is the place that is cleansed for the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, and thus our spirit bears witness with His Spirit. Thus the "spirit" is the seat of other world consciousness. This is where we are "pressed" by the leadership of the Spirit. This is where the image of God is restored or the place of direct union between the Spirit of God and man - his spirit, this is what is "born of the Spirit" (Jn. 3:6) and "created in righteousness and true holiness" - neither the soul or the body can claim that, as that is the progressive goal of the soul in progressive sanctification and ultimate reality in the body at glorification, but neither body or soul have been "created in righteousness and true holiness."

    1. Body - outer world seat of consciousness
    2. Soul - inner world seat of consciousness
    3. Spirit - other world seat of consciousness
     
  11. go2church

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    Mostly they are used interchangeably, Dichotomy not trichotomy.
     
  12. InTheLight

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    I've always thought that man had a body, soul, and spirit. Sort of like an analog to God being a trinity.

    Are you saying there is no difference between the soul and spirit? Or are you saying that there is a difference and that people tend to use the terms interchangeably?
     
  13. The Biblicist

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    The problem with your explanation is the word "mostly." If they were entirely inerchangable then "mostly" would not be necessary would it?
     
  14. percho

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    Whereas I would say the word of God teaches:

    Spirit eternal awareness (God) can be and was temporally extended to that formed from the dust of the ground, man, Adam.

    Body, formed from the dust of the ground, that when the temporary spirit is taken from returns to the dust of the ground. Only has awareness when the spirit is present.

    Soul is what develops from the two above are combined. Awareness of love, hate, one's being, accumulating knowledge. Personality.

    The soul would be what is awaiting resurrection to be ever with the Lord in a body incorruptible. To have eternal Spirit awareness, bodily.

    Col. 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    Is that speaking of the resurrected Jesus of Nazareth, who when the fullness of the time was come, was born of woman? Is it speaking of the following?

    And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:18 ---- Is it the firstborn from the dead who is? - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:15

    The plan was for man to be made/created in the image of the last Adam not the image of the first man Adam.

    Hebrews 2:6,8 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

    Why has not all things been put under him? Because he is still a little lower than the angels. He has to be born again, in the image of the last Adam before all things can be put under him. To be made/created/born equal to and or greater than the angels.

    But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. Luke 20:36
    For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, (the last Adam, the resurrected Jesus of Nazareth) that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (brothers so born) Romans 8:29

    But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, (was the firstborn from the dead) even so (by birth as brothers) them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (Him, with Jesus into the kingdom of God, the gospel Paul preached everywhere he went, Acts 20:25)

    The creation of Adam was not complete until the last Adam was made quickening Spirit, as in 1 Cor 15:45 also 46 as that verse pertains to Jesus also.
     
  15. The Biblicist

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    Exactly! In regard to biological life there is no difference between man and animal. However, man was created in the 'image of God." Both "soul" and "spirit are attributed to God and he has no biological life. Hence, both "soul" and "spirit' must have existence in some other sense WITHOUT A PHYSICAL BODY.

    Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    The English term "breath" represents a PLURAL in the Hebrew and refers to more than one kind of life. Man certainly shares BIOLOGICAL life with the animals who share with him a physical body. However, man is made in the image of God who does not have a physical body or biological life. He has SPIRITUAL life and SELf-CONSCIOUS life that has independent existence from a PHYSICAL LIFE FORM. The plurality of lives (Biological, spiritual) in a human being is under the direction of the "soul" or self-consciousness. In the resurrection body the plurality of lives are "spirit" directed instead of "soul" directed. The glorified man operates on a higher level than self-consciousness.
     
    #15 The Biblicist, Oct 18, 2014
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  16. percho

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    You may be happy to know we finely agreed on something. That is;

    In the resurrection body the plurality of lives are "spirit" directed instead of "soul" directed. The glorified man operates on a higher level than self-consciousness.

    The first man Adam was created, "soul," directed, a little lower than the angels.
    The last Adam came into the world, born of woman, as the first man Adam was created, a little lower than the angels, "soul directed," and he died. <Period. The last Adam was resurrected, "spirit," directed, a higher man, than than the man, he came into the world as.

    To date Jesus of Nazareth, born of woman, is the only man who has been resurrected as such. V46 1 Cor. 15 currently is speaking of Jesus and in the future will be speaking of us.

    Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural;(<ψυχικός soulish) and afterward (<after the resurrection) that which is spiritual.


    Adam was created flesh and blood, with the soul of his flesh, (<Lev 17:11 that which made him living) in his blood. That is how the blood of Christ could make atonement. He was sinless, yet poured out his soul, his blood, his life unto death.

    Jesus was resurrected flesh and bones as quickening Spirit. Eternal Spirit which is Life.

    Would you agree that God did not create the first man Adam, in his image of the highest level of man but so that his Son, the last Adam could become the highest level of man?
     
    #16 percho, Oct 18, 2014
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  17. The Biblicist

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    Do you realize you are admitting that the resurrected body in question in my context is the same one that previously was "soul" driven, and thus the very body that went down in the grave came up out of the grave a "spirit" driven body??????




    God is a spirit and yet is characterizes himself as a "soul" as well! Where is his blood and body if the term "soul" must be only defined in a biological sense???? Man was created in the image of God which demands he cannot be restricted to the same level as biological animals or else there is no difference at all. Your problem is that the scriptures characterize the "soul" differently in regard to God and those created in His image than it does to animals who are not created in His image. His image is "spiritual" non material and his "soul" is defined APART FROM any biological substance (breath, flesh, blood) but you seem to ignore this use of "soul" in the Scriptures.

    Jesus said that the believer at the physical death of the body does not die (Jn. 11:26) but your limitation of the nature of man denies that, hence, your strictly animalistic biological definition must be wrong or else Jesus lied and I quote:

    Jn. 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me SHALL NEVER DIE. never die. Believest thou this?

    Hence, the "soul" of man is not to be restricted to the animalistic biological model but rather must be defined according to the God kind of "soul" model that can exist either in or outside of a human body.



    Why should I agree with what the Bible explicitly denies and I quote:

    Gen. 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man IN OUR IMAGE, , after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    27 So God created man IN HIS OWN IMAGE, IN THE IMAGE OF GOD CREATED HE HIM: male and female created he them.

    Is Christ a "female"? Apparently then God created the first Adam "in his image."
     
  18. go2church

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    There is one verse where soul and spirit are both used, Thessalonians. Elsewhere the terms are used interchangeably. If three parts, which one is saved eternally? Leads to question, why would God create three as a reflection of the Trinity and then not save one?

    This has been an ongoing debate for centuries. Lots of people have had opinions, just offering mine.
     
  19. The Biblicist

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    I think you better check your concordance again as you missed Hebrews 4:12. Hence, TWO WITNESSES and that is the Biblical minimum to verify truth.
     
  20. percho

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    We do disagree for I believe the word teaches that the first man created in the image of God and those born in the image of the first man Adam exist as flesh and blood persons and are alive because the immortal Spirit God breathes spirit/life into them making them conscious living persons, souls.

    When life/spirit, from God departs from them they are no longer conscious living persons, souls, they are dead persons and their flesh and blood bodies return to the dust.

    Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

    Are the he and whosoever, in bold speaking of soul and the he's underlined, speaking of body?

    For as in Adam all (bodies or souls) die, even so in Christ shall all (bodies or souls) be made alive. 1 Cor 15:22

    And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Heb 9:27 It was appointed that the living soul Adam to die.
    Will the souls be raised from the dead, I am the resurrection and the life, he who is believing in me, even if he may die, shall live; (by resurrection) Will the judgement take place before they are raised form the dead?

    Actually I would like to hear your thoughts as to why soul, whether the soul of men or the soul of God is feminine.

    I am not sure I have any thoughts being I just now noticed it, because of your above post. Thanks.
     

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