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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by ktn4eg, Oct 16, 2014.

  1. go2church

    go2church Active Member
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    Article, read if you wish, metaphors often make for poor theology

    Old Testament Anthropology
    In the ot, humans are consistently portrayed as the fusion of an immaterial life force and a body of flesh. Neither part on its own constitutes a living person—only the whole. There are two main terms used to describe the immaterial part of humans: “soul” (nephesh) and “spirit” (ruach). However, the various meanings of the terms can make interpretation difficult.
    The ot terms for “soul” (nephesh) and “spirit” (ruach) are consistently used to identify either the life force—the fact that the body is living—or attributes dependent on brain function, such as emotions, intelligence, and conscience. The terms are used interchangeably. Genesis introduces another term that refers to the life force: nishmath. It is used in the only description of the origin of the soul, in which God animates the first human—Adam—by breathing into him the “breath (nishmath) of life” (Gen 2:7; compare Josh 11:11). While animals are not said to be animated in the same way, they are described as having the nephesh (Gen 1:21, 24) and ruach (Eccl 3:21).
    However, nishmath is used interchangeably with nephesh and ruach, which eliminates it as a unique term. The usage of these terms also overlaps with “heart” (leb/lebab) (for a table comparing the usage of these terms in the ot, see the table link below).
    The Nature of Humans in the New Testament
    While certain nt passages seem to contradict the ot regarding the immaterial nature of human beings, this is not the case. For example, Heb 4:12 refers to the Word of God’s ability to “divide the soul and spirit.” However, this does not indicate an actual division between soul and spirit. Rather, the verse claims that the Word of God can penetrate the inner person in such a way—not that such a division exists prior to its work. Soul and spirit are no more separated in Heb 4:12 than “bone and marrow” of the same verse.
    Another nt example is 1 Thess 5:23. While this passage seems to indicate that one part of the inner person may be the image of God, Paul is likely expressing his wish that believers be sanctified as completely as possible. Paul uses the Greek word holotelēs to express his wish for complete sanctification—a term that means “in every way complete.” Paul knew the ot well; he would not violate its teaching.
    Although the Bible makes clear that humans have an immaterial existence outside the body at death (2 Cor 5:8; note that humans will be re-embodied: 1 Cor 15:35–50), this reality cannot be decisively connected to any single biblical term for the inner life—the concept is much broader than that.
    Michael S. Heiser
     
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    This is nothing more than a statement of generalities. Hebrews 4:12 does not use "spirit" or "soul" metaphorically, The Word of God distinguishes between the bone and morrow as much as between the "spirit" and "soul".

    If there is any metaphorical use here, then it is the Son of God, the living Word that is being respresented and thus the omniscient God the Son clearly distinguishes between the "spirit" and "soul."

    Furthermore, your article hardly touches the surface of Biblical use.
     
  3. go2church

    go2church Active Member
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    Of course it's general - talking about the entire Old Testament and New Testament.

    If it was so clear, why the centuries of debate? Not as clear as you are making it out to be - also not that important.
     
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    This is where you are so wrong. The reason most people don't understand the Biblical doctrine of salvation is due to denying the three-fold character of man. Salvation is in three tenses and each tense relates to each aspect of the human nature. This is also why most don't understand the present tense aspect of salvation. However, think about this for a moment. The past tense is explicitly applied to the "spirit" (Jn. 3:6) and is said to be a creative act of God so that it is "created in righteousness and true holiness." The future tense is specifically stated to be about the body (1 Cor. 15). Now, that leaves only the present tense concerning your daily life. Interestingly, the term "psueche" is translated both "soul" and "life." However, from your comments I doubt that you really care about any such distinction anyway.
     
    #24 The Biblicist, Oct 20, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2014
  5. go2church

    go2church Active Member
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    Dropping some serious knowledge.

    You're right, I don't care about your made up, salvation in three parts mumbo-jumbo.

    Who teaches such things?
     
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    It is one thing to openly ridicule a teaching, but quite another thing to demonstrate it is wrong. For example, can you demonstrate that it is not the "spirit" which is born again (Jn. 3:6), and thus is not at least part of the PAST TENSE aspect of salvation and are you going to claim that it is your "soul" which is "created in righteousness and TRUE holiness" (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10). Please tell us what aspect of your human nature is a created work of God that exists in "true holiness"?? Do you understand what "true holiness" requires?

    For example, can you deny that the body is the subject of future salvation (1 Cor. 15)? Or was it your body that was "saved" or "born again" or "created in Christ Jesus" or "created in righteousness and true holiness"????? Is your body being saved right now? Is it saved from death? Will you die if Christ does not return, or is the salvation yet future?

    For example, can you deny that the Greek term psuche is translated "soul" and "life" and can you explain why? Is not the outward expression of the inward activity of your mind, heart and will called your "life"???? If the soul is the inward activity of intellect, emotions and will, would not the outward expression through your body be called your "life"? If not, what would you call that outward expression?

    For example, can you explain how "redeeming the time" (Eph. 5:16) is possible in connection with the revealed will of God and filling of the Spirit (Eph. 5:17-18)??? The spirit, soul, and body model of salvation can explain it in detail.

    Any fool can ridicule anything, as that requires no intelligence at all. Can you provide some substance to support your ridicule??? Tell us why you think what I have said above is wrong or "mumbo jumbo"??? Give us some substantive reasons for your ridicule! Now think before you respond, because if you respond only with more ridicule without any real substance to support your ridicule, then all the readers will know who is really speaking "mumbo jumbo" won't they?
     
    #26 The Biblicist, Oct 20, 2014
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  7. go2church

    go2church Active Member
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    Besides you who teaches such things. You're making a distinction without a difference. Are you perhaps confusing the threefold nature of sanctification, am saved, being saved and will be saved?

    We receive new bodies at resurrection, there is no salvation for these bodies we have now.

    Psyche can be life as a second or third meaning, but first meaning is breath, it is by implication spirit - for that matter it could mean heart and mind as well. Root word is psycho, a verb to breathe. Careful making an entire doctrine on a third meaning of a word.

    Redeeming the time needs a threefold explanation? Seems pretty clear especially in the light of Verse 11 "have nothing to do with fruitless deeds".
     
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Well, first thank you for being a little more reasonable. Now, as to your comments.

    It seems that you are viewing the nature of man no different than the Biological nature of animals. I do not deny that man shares the same biological nature as animals but I certainly deny his nature is restricted to biological life.

    For example, both the term "spirit" and "soul" are attributed to God and yet God has no biological life but is "spirit" in substance. As such, both the term "spirit" and "soul" are used of beings that can dwell inside as well as outside of a physical biological form and Christ is proof of that. He existed as the eternal Word and Son of God prior to the incarnation, thus as God the Son his "soul" and "spirit' had nothing to do with biological life but existed in a conscience state apart from any biological life. In the incarnation he took upon himself biological life in the form of man.

    Jesus said, that at the physical death or the cessation of biological life, there is some other aspect of human nature that continues and shall NEVER DIE even when the body or biological life ceases, and then he asks "believeth thou this?" I am asking you the very same question?

    Jn. 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

    My position is that man was created in the image of God in regard to this dual aspect of "soul" and "spirit" and that the PLURAL Hebrew word translated by the singular "breath" in Genesis 2 supports that. Thus man can continue to consciously exist in and outside of a biological life form.
     
    #28 The Biblicist, Oct 20, 2014
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  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Soul is what all humans have, while the spirit is the part of us that is dead until made alive again in Christ, part of us that relates to God directly!
     
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The "spirit" is "spirit" in substance and so cannot suffer biological physical death. Hence, it must only suffer "spiritual" death which does not mean it has no existence, but only that it is SEPARATED from God and is "dead IN TRESSPASSES AND SINS" as further explained by Ephesians 2:2-3 which is a very conscious state of existence.
     
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