what happens after dying ?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by faceless man, Dec 4, 2001.

  1. faceless man

    faceless man
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    0
    first of all i want to say hallo to everbody here, because i am a new member.this board is great !

    do we go to heaven directly after dying, or do we "sleep" until the revelation comes true and jesus judges the dead and the living ? many pastors have the opinion that the belief of the "deep christian sleep" is wrong and old-fashioned. i saw a tv-sermon last month and the pastor said that a christian goes to heaven without detour. what do you think ?
    are you familiar with near-death-experiences ?
    i have read some and they sound great !
    one person said that she was suddenly on a green field and jesus was there waiting for her ! he talked to her and asked her wether she wanted to live on, or die. (she had tried suicide)
    i always hoped that jesus is the first thing you see after dying, but now i am afraid that there is nothing but this sleep.
    but i think i have a proof which shows that you enter heaven directly.-jesus says to one of the men,who are crucified next to him,that he will enter paradise with him TODAY.
    this shows that there is no delay.
    what do you think ?

    :confused:
     
  2. John Wells

    John Wells
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2001
    Messages:
    2,568
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello and welcome to the BB,

    The "thief on the cross" is an excellent source for the belief that there is no "soul sleep" for believers. Another is from the Apostle Paul:

    2 Corinthians 5:8 (KJV)
    We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

    In this and other places Paul gave evidence that he genuinely believed that when he died his spirit would depart his body and "be present with the Lord."

    God bless,
    John
     
  3. chris hoekstra

    chris hoekstra
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    thank you john.
    i had no idea that this example was so famous, it just came to my mind and i thought it fits to the topic.
     
  4. TurboMike

    TurboMike
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2001
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    0
    "faceless man"- Creed?
     
  5. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,841
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faceless man:
    are you familiar with near-death-experiences ?
    i have read some and they sound great !
    one person said that she was suddenly on a green field and jesus was there waiting for her ! he talked to her and asked her wether she wanted to live on, or die. (she had tried suicide)
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    There are at least two explanantions for near-death experiences. One is scientific, having to do with brain activity at the point near death. (These people also have never actually died and "come back"; when man dies he is dead until the resurrection).

    The second explanation is a delusion offered up by Satan while the individual is in their state of unconcious. Satan can appear as an angel of light, preaching a false salvation. In these NDE's all people believe themselves entering into heaven whether they are believers in Christ or not. It is a false gospel.

    Hebrews 9:27-28 (ESV)
    And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, [28] so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
     
  6. faceless man

    faceless man
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    0
    yes, turbomike, i love CREED ! they have got great lyrics and the music is also great.do you also listen to CREED ? have you got the new album WEATHERED ?


    CHRIS, where did you get this opinion with satan confusing people in nde's ?
    i never thought about this. but one thing speaks against your theory. you know what, the people who had these near-death-experiences came back as christians, even though they were atheists before, or at least some of them were atheists before.
    they came back to life and changed completely, some of them wrote books and they all become righteous !
    why should satan do this ? this would be contra-productive for him, bringing people to christ.
    the other theory with the brain is also very popular, i cannot say ether it is right or wrong, but jesus is reality and i do not care about scientist with all their theories, saying that god is not real.
    but one thing you metioned, about satan appearing as christ, scares me a bit. what if you have a vision, or whatever , and you cannot even rely on the authenticity.
    what if satan appears as angel to us, how do we know ?
    Chris, you seem to believe in the old-fashioned theory of being dead until the revelation comes true, right ?
     
  7. TurboMike

    TurboMike
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2001
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    0
    yea, i like creed, not 100%, but majority. Yet, got weathered. Haven't listened to all of it, but i like "my sacrifice". Check out creednet.com msg board. Lots of atheists and foul language, but alot of christians trying to make a different. Creed does check the board from time to time. check out the band third day. Also Lincoln Brewster.

    I agree with Chris. Once your dead, it's heaven or hell. No "second chances". You know if a athiest or agnostic had the NDE and saw the "light" and thought they made it to heaven believing what they believe (or not believe) they they would never change and satan has them. Chris could be onto something. [​IMG]

    [ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: TurboMike ]
     
  8. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,841
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faceless man:
    CHRIS, where did you get this opinion with satan confusing people in nde's ?
    i never thought about this. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    It is a valid inference from Scripture's descriptions of Satan's SOP.

    2 Cor. 11:12-15 (ESV)
    And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. [13] For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. [14] And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. [15] So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

    Also Galatians warns us:

    Galatians 1:8-9 (ESV)
    But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. [9] As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>but one thing speaks against your theory. you know what, the people who had these near-death-experiences came back as christians, even though they were atheists before, or at least some of them were atheists before.
    they came back to life and changed completely, some of them wrote books and they all become righteous !
    why should satan do this ? this would be contra-productive for him, bringing people to christ. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I have not heard or read of any Christians having this experience. Where is the documentation? Do we know that they are Christians? What is their beliefs? DO they preach repentance for sins and faith in Christ alone? I am highly skeptical of these reports, especially as they would equate with new revelation, which has ceased, and would be equal to Paul or John being caught up to heaven.

    Why would Satan do it? To undermine good biblical doctrine and lead people to sway with every wind of false belief.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> what if you have a vision, or whatever , and you cannot even rely on the authenticity.
    what if satan appears as angel to us, how do we know ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    1 John 4:1-6 (ESV)
    Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. [2] By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, [3] and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. [4] Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. [5] They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. [6] We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Chris, you seem to believe in the old-fashioned theory of being dead until the revelation comes true, right ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Dead is dead. Its as old-fashioned as God's word:

    Rev. 20:11-15 (ESV)
    Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. [12] And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. [13] And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. [14] Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. [15] And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
     
  9. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    I think one of the things Jesus said might be of help here as well. In the story of the rich man and Lazarus, both were already in the 'suburbs' (if you will) of their final destinations. The rich man was already feeling the heat and was so thirsty. Lazarus was already in Paradise, or Abraham's bosom, awaiting Christ's appearance.

    Near death experiences are often, from what I have seen and read, deceptions by demons or Satan himself. Of course no one can say 'all,' and I am of the personal opinion that a fake cannot be a fake unless there is something real first. But Satan is pegged as a liar and the father of it (the lie) by Jesus, and Paul warns us he can appear as an angel of light. What I understand most those who have had these experiences come back with is a sort of universal 'good feeling' toward men, and an awe of the beauty they saw/experienced. These are lovely emotions, but I have to ask myself, what happened to "Repent!"? What happened to the fact that almost every angelic appearance in the Bible requires the angel to tell the human, "Don't be afraid..." Obviously, confrontation with true holiness seems to leave one in a state of deep fear and shock. Even John, confronted with the risen and holy Christ in Revelation fell to the ground as though dead!
    So maybe some of these lovely feelings of peace and brotherhood which are the seeming results of so many near death experiences are just that -- only feelings. And feelings fade. They get replaced. Pain and reality intrude. Then the memory of the 'light' and the lovely feelings becomes more of a taunt, doesn't it?

    The hard and cold reality is that there is only one life and that there is judgment which follows. Now that Christ has ascended to heaven, to be with Him immediately after death is to be in heaven. And to not be with Him immediately after death is to be at least in the process of a one-way trip in the other direction. This is the point of the story of Lazarus and the rich man; this is the point Paul made several times, and this is the point the writer of Hebrews also made in reference to one life, one death, then the judgment.

    If soul sleep were a reality, in closing, why are their saints under the altar in Revelation saying "How long....?"

    In Christ,
    Helen

    I was going to close there but perhaps mentioning my own experience might mean something. When I was 30 I had a burst appendix and because it was 'disguised' by a burst ovarian cyst, the additional problem of the appendix was not recognized and I got peritonitis -- a virulent and rapidly-spreading internal infection caused by the release of bacterial contamination in the abdomen. I died on the surgery table and was brought back. There were NO experiences. No lights. No knowledge of what had happened to me, and when I was told afterwards I was only surprised. However, a few days later, when it appeared I was again losing the battle for my life, I do remember what it felt like. I was so exhausted from fighting the internal infection that I was finally giving up. It felt like I was gently sinking into a dark, peaceful, velvety place -- just sort of down and down into a quiet and peaceful 'well.' It was gentle, it was a sense of release, and I was not either afraid or awed -- I was just tired and ready to give up fighting. My brother had his entire church praying, and the women in my church were praying most of the night for me as I understand. I slept that night and in the morning I woke up, sat up, looked around, was hungry and wanted all those blasted tubes out of me! But that, and the doctor almost dropping his eyeballs when he walked in is a whole 'nother story.... [​IMG]
     
  10. faceless man

    faceless man
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    0
    thank you for your great answers.


    @mike: i like Creed , but some of the songs could be a bit harder, more guitar riffs etc..
    i know creednet.com i have posted there a few month ago, but no longer.
     
  11. faceless man

    faceless man
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    0
    dear Chris,
    i cannot refer you to the address now, cause i do not know it, but as soon as i find it out i will post the address here.
    it is a huge site full of near-death-experiences.
    you can read them all, they are divided into christian nde's,atheist nde's, children nde's, buddhist nde's etc...
    really a whole lotta nde's.
    the people who came back have written books about their experiences (some may call them hypocrits) but after all they are christians now. you can read passages from their books.

    you have a very strict opinion about heaven and hell.
    the nde-people say, that god gave them a new chance, cause he brought them back to life and changed them forever.
    i do not doubt what they say, why shouldn't jesus conince atheist ?
    god says: i harvest also where i did not sow.
     
  12. faceless man

    faceless man
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    0
  13. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,841
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faceless man:
    dear Chris,
    you have a very strict opinion about heaven and hell.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    So does Christ:
    Luke 12:5 (ESV)
    But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!
    Faceless, are you a Baptist? If not, please post your posts in the Free-for-All section of the board, and not the Baptist Only Section. Thanks.
     
  14. livin'intheword

    livin'intheword
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2001
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    0
    Chris said:
    Dead is dead. Its as old-fashioned as God's word:

    Revelation 6:9-11
    9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

    10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

    11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    Chris, if we are in "soul sleep" until the Great White Throne Judgment, as you'll have it we'll have to go through, where did these souls come from? They are concious and fully awear. They aren't sleeping. I'd like to hear your point of view on this.

    Paula
     
  15. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,841
    Likes Received:
    0
    Paula:

    You have misunderstood me. I have been arguing against near-death experiences, and for the conscious state of the soul during the death of the body. Dead is dead, but
    "..we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, [7] for we walk by faith, not by sight. [8] Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. [9] So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 2 Cor. 5:6-9 (ESV)
     
  16. faceless man

    faceless man
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    0
    @ chris. i do not understand, this is the general discussion section.
    is this baptists only ?
    i didn't post in a baptist-only section.
     
  17. faceless man

    faceless man
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    0
    ah, i see BAPTIST ONLY FORUMS....
     

Share This Page

Loading...