What happens when we die?

Not according to the Bible.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
--The body consists of three parts: body, soul, and spirit.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--According to James, the body is separated from the spirit. It is called death, physical death. It comes to all of us. Death and taxes--you can't escape them.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--Before a person is unsaved his spirit is as good as dead. Only the Holy Spirit can make it alive, or render it operative. The spirit within you has no life; it is dead spiritually as far as having any communication with God. This is spiritual death--separation from God caused by sin.

Genesis 49:33 And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost, and was gathered unto his people.
--An interesting verse isn't it? After Jacob had blessed his sons he died. He yielded up the ghost (spirit WEB). The spirit was separated from the body. The body was taken by his children and buried in the cave of Macphelah. Jacob (i.e., his spirit) was gathered unto his people (i.e., his ancestors--those already in Sheol). His spirit went to Sheol or paradise, Sheol being the place of the departed dead, and there he awaited the coming of the Lord. However I believe that Christ came at the time of his death and delivered those Old Testament saints from Paradise and let them to what we now call Heaven. The other part of Sheol still exists in the form of Hell, as described in Luke 16.

Now a question of integrity for you. Since what you have been posting is obviously not Baptist doctrine. What is your doctrinal affiliation? SDA perhaps? Tell us plainly, as you well know that this is a Baptist only forum.
DHK

 

Russ Kelly -- thank you for engaging my folly

The verb, BRING, is correct Greek and means "bring back" as in "bring back FROM HEAVEN to reunite with their resurrected bodies.

"Bring back" is correct. The Heaven part isn't there; It's just something we're TOLD, without any biblical basis to back it up.

Jesus already says no one has ascended UP to heaven (Jn 3:13). He ought to know; He was there.

The Bible says the resurrected saints will meet the LORD in the air, the clouds and shall ever be with the LORD. Where then will the LORD be?

From all Bible indications, HE will be here on Earth ruling from Jerusalem (Isa. 2:1-5) - "and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: NATION shall not lift up sword against NATION, neither shall they learn war any more."

 

TWade --

What do you say concerning Luke 16:19-31?

There is no doubt as to how the Bible uses the word "bosom". In Isaiah 40:11, we find God will care for His people as a shepherd does his sheep, carrying them "in His bosom".

Jesus was "in the bosom" of the Father (Jn. 1:18), enjoying the Father's blessings and close relationship.

Moses carried the children of Israel in his bosom (Num. 11:12). To be in one's bosom is to have that one's love and protection, and share his blessings and inheritance.

Lazarus being carried away by the angels (Matt. 25:31) into Abraham's bosom, means he was carried - not up to Heaven - but into the status of a son and heir of Abraham (Gal. 3:29).


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God Bless everyone everyday

 

And a person not in existence can have "love and protection?"

 

How do you explain the conversation between the rich man and Abraham?

Lazarus is comforted. How so? The rich man is tormented. How so? If their spirit is dead, how can these things be? How can there be conversation and awareness of comfort or torment?

Also, how do you explain Peter seeing Moses on the mount with Jesus, having a conversation.

Also, why was Paul in a strait between departing to be with Jesus and staying, "abiding in the flesh?" Paul loved and wept over the church, probably like no other man that lived. Why would he be in a fix between staying with the church that he loved or departing, if his departing was nothing more than a state of unconsciousness?

Also, regarding Luke 23:43, when you claim that there was no comma in the original, why do YOU place one after the word "today?" Are you using the New World Translation (Jehovah's Witness publication), and if you are, please tell us why.

 

Well said, Tom.

Also, Wopik, the scripture about Lazarus and the Rich man uses the words 'a certain rich man', to clairfy that it's not an allegory or parable.

Diane

 

Actually, I'd have to disagree with that statement. Jesus didn't always introduce his parables by announcing "this is a parable".

As to the insertion of commas, letters, words, etc. into the English translation of the originals, that only illustrates clearly the difficulty of translation. Just because a translator put a comma somewhere doesn't mean it belongs there. Hence, no translation of the Bible can be "inspired".

"Today" is a concept that only exists on the physical side of life. As Jesus and the thief passed from this life to the next, the term "today" ceased to indicate a literal day, if it ever was to be interpreted literally in the first place. Jesus simply pointed out to the thief that they were leaving this life and going on to the next, and they were both going to the same place.

 

Do with the matter what you wish. I will continue to trust my Bible, commas and all.

 

If you are trusting your Bible at all, why are you trusting J.W. doctrine? When common sense makes good sense, why make it into nonsense?
DHK

 

I think you have me confused with another poster. I do not trust JW doctrine. I am one who questioned another poster as to whether or not they were using the NWT.

I trust my Bible, which places the comma in it's proper place - BEFORE the word "today."

[ April 23, 2004, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: TWade ]

 

This topic has come up before. I did a bit of digging, contacting my old bible college profs, etc. The phrase "there was a certain person" in the cultural and linguistic context of the day is somewhat parallel to us saying "there once was", or the less often used "once upon a time". Now, that's not difinitive enough to say for sure that it was definitely an allegorical account (as is the case with parables in general), but it's not difinitive enough to support the idea that it was based on a real person, let alone whether the events were allegorical or not.

In simpler terms, it's likely, but not definitely, an allegory.

 

This "Soul Sleep" business?? What are you planning to say about Moses and Elijah's conversation with the Lord Jesus on Mount of Transfiguration??? Were they "talking in their sleep??"

 

I asked the same question (about Moses) but no answer.

I would also like to say that I believe Luke 16 to be a true account that actually took place, for it agrees with what is taught elsewhere in the Bible.

When we die, we give up the ghost. In other words, our spirit departs from our bodies to go and be with the Lord. This is exactly what Paul taught. 2Cor 5.

 

I think you have me confused with another poster. I do not trust JW doctrine. I am one who questioned another poster as to whether or not they were using the NWT.

I trust my Bible, which places the comma in it's proper place - BEFORE the word "today." </font>[/QUOTE]Yes I did,
For some reason I got your quote mixed up with wopik's to whom you were responding. Sorry for the mix up.
DHK

 

TWade --

I trust my Bible, which places the comma in it's proper place - BEFORE the word "today."

You should trust your Bible, but sometimes the translators had their own slant.

Take for example the word "Easter" in Acts 12:4. The original word is "Passover" - Pascha. Check any Bible commentary.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/ -- type in "Easter" and see what you get.

 

TWade --

So Moses never died?

Who said Moses never died?

The Bible says we are all grave-yard dead till the resurrection OF THE DEAD.

 

wopik

Jesus was not saying in John 3:13 that nobody before him had ascended into heaven. Verses 11 and 12 furnish the context of verse 13. He was saying that nobody who had been in heaven had returned from heaven to tell us of heavenly things. Thus Enoch, Moses and Elijah ascended in new bodies and teh spirits of believers ascended as in Hebrews 12:1.

While dispensationalists literally apply texts like Zechariah 14 to national Israal, you Armstrongites and SDAs apply them to your own cultic church. I believe Jesus in John 14:1-6 when he promised to prepare a place in heaven for Christians. The reign of Christ on earth (which most churches teach) can be explained by the New Jerusalem descending OUT OF HEAVEN to eath in Revelation 21:1,2.

Concerning where the comma goes for "today," Ephesians 4:8-10 plainly says that Jesus descended first before he ascended. I bellieve that he descended into the upper part of Sheol (paradise) and transplanted paradise to heaven. Therefore, Jesus did indeed go to paradise the very day he died along with the penitent thief.

Also, since Jesus' BODY remained in the tomb, then His SPIRIT must have existed after death in a conscious state. How can you believe that Jesus had a

 

wopik

Jesus was not saying in John 3:13 that nobody before him had ascended into heaven. Verses 11 and 12 furnish the context of verse 13. He was saying that nobody who had been in heaven had returned from heaven to tell us of heavenly things. Thus Enoch, Moses and Elijah ascended in new bodies and teh spirits of believers ascended as in Hebrews 12:1.

While dispensationalists literally apply texts like Zechariah 14 to national Israal, you Armstrongites and SDAs apply them to your own cultic church. I believe Jesus in John 14:1-6 when he promised to prepare a place in heaven for Christians. The reign of Christ on earth (which most churches teach) can be explained by the New Jerusalem descending OUT OF HEAVEN to eath in Revelation 21:1,2.

Concerning where the comma goes for "today," Ephesians 4:8-10 plainly says that Jesus descended first before he ascended. I bellieve that he descended into the upper part of Sheol (paradise) and transplanted paradise to heaven. Therefore, Jesus did indeed go to paradise the very day he died along with the penitent thief.

Also, since Jesus' BODY remained in the tomb, then His SPIRIT must have existed after death in a conscious state. How can you believe that Jesus had a

 

wopik

Jesus was not saying in John 3:13 that nobody before him had ascended into heaven. Verses 11 and 12 furnish the context of verse 13. He was saying that nobody who had been in heaven had returned from heaven to tell us of heavenly things. Thus Enoch, Moses and Elijah ascended in new bodies and teh spirits of believers ascended as in Hebrews 12:1.

While dispensationalists literally apply texts like Zechariah 14 to national Israal, you Armstrongites and SDAs apply them to your own cultic church. I believe Jesus in John 14:1-6 when he promised to prepare a place in heaven for Christians. The reign of Christ on earth (which most churches teach) can be explained by the New Jerusalem descending OUT OF HEAVEN to eath in Revelation 21:1,2.

Concerning where the comma goes for "today," Ephesians 4:8-10 plainly says that Jesus descended first before he ascended. I bellieve that he descended into the upper part of Sheol (paradise) and transplanted paradise to heaven. Therefore, Jesus did indeed go to paradise the very day he died along with the penitent thief.

Also, since Jesus' BODY remained in the tomb, then His SPIRIT must have existed after death in a conscious state. How can you believe that Jesus had a

 

wopik

Jesus was not saying in John 3:13 that nobody before him had ascended into heaven. Verses 11 and 12 furnish the context of verse 13. He was saying that nobody who had been in heaven had returned from heaven to tell us of heavenly things. Thus Enoch, Moses and Elijah ascended in new bodies and teh spirits of believers ascended as in Hebrews 12:1.

While dispensationalists literally apply texts like Zechariah 14 to national Israal, you Armstrongites and SDAs apply them to your own cultic church. I believe Jesus in John 14:1-6 when he promised to prepare a place in heaven for Christians. The reign of Christ on earth (which most churches teach) can be explained by the New Jerusalem descending OUT OF HEAVEN to eath in Revelation 21:1,2.

Concerning where the comma goes for "today," Ephesians 4:8-10 plainly says that Jesus descended first before he ascended. I bellieve that he descended into the upper part of Sheol (paradise) and transplanted paradise to heaven. Therefore, Jesus did indeed go to paradise the very day he died along with the penitent thief.

Also, since Jesus' BODY remained in the tomb, then His SPIRIT must have existed after death in a conscious state. How can you believe that Jesus had a