What happens when we die?

When we die, we give up the ghost. In other words, our spirit departs from our bodies to go and be with the Lord. This is exactly what Paul taught. 2Cor 5.

You are right. Someplace in the OT it says that when we die, the spirit goes back to God who gave it. Could be in Job or Eccl.

I always think there is a difference between the soul and the spirit. I differentiate between the two.

 

wopik`

John 3:12-13 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

 

wopik`

Jesus was saying in John 3:11-13 that nobody had ascended into heaven and returned to bring heaven's message. Thus Enoch, Moses, and Elijah ascended in new bodies and the spirits of all other saints ascended as in Hebrews 12:1.

You use texts like Zechariah 14 lliterally to apply to your cultic church while others use them to refer to national Israel. Your use fits nobody's hermeneutic but your own.

Ephesians 4:8-10 plainly says that Jesus DESCENDED before he ascended. I believe that he descended into the upper part of Sheol (Paradise) and transplanted it into heaven. Therefore Jesus and the penitent thief did indeed go to paradise the same day that they died.

Since Revelation 21:1,2 describes the New Jerusalem descending from heaven to earth after the millennium in chapter 20, I see no incongruity since Jesus promised the Christians in John 14:1-6 that he had to go to heaven to prepare a place for them. This was not true about national Israel.

[ April 23, 2004, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: Russ Kelly ]

 

You stated that "the dead are dead until the resurrection." Moses (and Elijah) was seen with Jesus on the mount. If, as you say, the dead are dead until the resurrection, you must believe that Moses never died.

Also, is "everlasting life" everlasting if it dies?

 

Hello Folks,

Kind of new here

There is a lot of conversation about the placing of a comma in this text,

It is true the original writings did not have any punctuation marks, this was all added on our behalf so we could find, refer to, and edit our current Bible versions,

quote:

"I tell you today, you shall be with me in paradise".

Compared to:
"I tell you, today you shall be with me in paradise".

I must believe the 1st,
I tell you today, you shall be with me in paradise

Why?

What did Jesus himself say?

Joh 20:13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him.
Joh 20:14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
Joh 20:15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
Joh 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Here I think it is Very clear that Jesus has not yet ascended.

In Love, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ
Dan

 

It IS very clear. Jesus had not yet ascended. Paradise was not "up." He descended first into the lower parts of the earth (Eph 4). Luke 16 reveals that the rich man was in hell, in torments. He lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham. He cried to Abraham. There was a "great gulf" between them. The two were in the lower parts of the earth. How do we know? Add it up.

Let me ask another question of those who promote "soul sleep." What does it mean to be "absent from the body?"

 

TWade,

That has an answer and is much more than I have time for in this format, (This forum)

I believe in what you are calling “Soul sleep”, the Bible teaches that when we die we rest in the grave until our Lord and Savior returns for us.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

God gave us this “Breath” and it will go back to God when we die.
Please note 2 things here; There is a “Body” and “Breath” which BECAME “A living Soul”

These that follow are my absolute favorite verses in the Bible. It gives us hope, a clear understanding of Christ return, (This and Many others verse), this is his promise to us.

When Christ returns we will see our brothers and sisters in Christ LITERLY arise from there graves and then you and I will rise up and meet Jesus in the clouds. Yes we will see his glorious face soon.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

TWade and others, I deeply encourage you to not just read your Bibles but to STUDY it.
I am not a fan at all of these folks that encourage you to “Read it through in a year”, I would much rather sit with friends study a topic for hours and days than blast through just to say I read it 12 times so far.

We need to understand that when Jesus was here on this earth he had many things to say, and everything he said meant ONLY ONE thing, I do NOT know nor do I claim to know, but we need to pray for understanding , God said there would much confusion in the days just before his return. Is it any wonder there so many religions today?

Just for what it is worth, I have found the best computer study Bible I think in the entire world and it is absolutely free, I am not promoting this and I certainly do not receive anything for saying this, some may already have this, it can be found here:
http://www.e-sword.net/

In Love, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, Glorify him and only him.
Dan

 

Dan,

Thank you for your reply. But I will tell you that I do not see what you see. What I see is that our spirit continues even after the death of our bodies. I see Jesus teaching this, and I see Paul teaching this.

So far, no one has answered my questions:

* What about Moses? Why was he seen when he should have been "soul sleeping?"

* Why do some soul-sleep advocates place the comma after "today?" Of all the translations I've checked, only the New World Translation places the comma after "today." What's up?

* What about Luke 16? This is an account of what happened after the two had died. They continued. No soul sleep.

* Why was Paul in a strait between departing to be with Jesus and staying, "abiding in the flesh?"

* What does it mean to be "absent from the body?"

 

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (KJV)

Luke 23:43 And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise. (ASV)

Luke 23:43 Jesus said to him, "Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise." (WEB)

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (DBY)

Luke 23:43 and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.' (YLT)

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise. (MKJV)

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you will be with Me in Paradise. (LITV)

Luk 23:43 Jesus said to him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise." (ISV)

8 different translations all punctuate the verse the same way, putting the comma before the word "today."

"Jesus told him that his prayer would be answered that very day, implying, evidently, that it would be immediately at death" (Barnes)

Note:
"That the souls of all the righteous at death are immediately received into a state of happiness and glory; This day shalt thou be with me; not after the resurrection, but immediately after thy dissolution. That man's soul is asleep, or worse, that dreams of the soul's sleeping till the resurrection: for why should the believers' happiness be deferred, when they are immediately capable of enjoying it? Why should their salvation slumber, when the wicked's damnation slumbers not? How do such delays consist with Christ's ardent desires, and his people's vehement longing to be together?" (Burkitt)

"not a day's delay shall there be for thee; thou shalt not be parted from Me even for a moment, but together we shall go, and with Me, ere this day expire, shalt thou be in Paradise" (Jamieson, Faucett, and Brown)

"It is immediate upon death: This day shalt thou be with me, to-night, before to-morrow. Thou souls of the faithful, after they are delivered from the burden of the flesh, immediately are in joy and felicity; the spirits of just men are immediately made perfect. Lazarus departs, and is immediately comforted; Paul departs, and is immediately with Christ, Php 1:23." (Mathew Henry)

"To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise. Jesus answered the robber's prayer by a solemn promise that they would, that day, be together in that portion of the invisible world where those who are accepted of God await the resurrection" (Fourfold Gospel and Commentary)

"However crude may have been the robber's Messianic ideas Jesus clears the path for him. He promises him immediate and conscious fellowship after death with Christ in Paradise which is a Persian word and is used here not for any supposed intermediate state; but the very bliss of heaven itself." (Robertson's Word Pictures)

"In paradise - The place where the souls of the righteous remain from death till the resurrection. As if he had said, I will not only remember thee then, but this very day." (Wesley's Notes)

Most commentaries also say the same thing. None that I have read sanction soul sleep.
DHK

 

DHK

If you look at and study any and all ancient manuscripts, you will find there to be NO, absolutely no punctuation markings, there were none, again these were put there for our benefit, The AKJV is my favorite and for that matter the only Bible I read, and I hate to tell you this but there are some “Punctuation” errors, God did not put them there, man did, if you drop what God did not put there and read it …..
Now this is WAY off base but as we all know God did not create Satan either, He created Lucifer, Lucifer made Satan.

Barnes:
“Do not approach me now for this purpose. Do not delay here. Other opportunities will yet be afforded to see me. I have not yet ascended - that is, I am not about to ascend immediately, but shall remain yet on earth to afford opportunity to my disciples to enjoy my presence.”

Clarke:
“Spend no longer time with me now: I am not going immediately to heaven - you will have several opportunities of seeing me again: but go and tell my disciples,

Gill:
for I am not yet ascended to my Father; nor shall I immediately go to him; I shall make some stay upon earth;

Matthew Henry:
Mary thought, now that her Master was risen, he would presently set up a temporal kingdom, such as they had long promised themselves. “No,” says Christ, “touch me not, with any such thought; think not to lay hold on me, so as to detain me here; for, though I am not yet ascended, go to my brethren, and tell them, I am to ascend.” As before his death, so now after his resurrection, he still harps upon this, that he was going away, was no more in the world; and therefore they must look higher than his bodily presence, and look further than the present state of things. 2. “Touch me not, do not stay to touch me now, stay not now to make any further enquiries, or give any further expressions of joy, for I am not yet ascended, I shall not depart immediately, it may as well be done another time; the best service thou canst do now is to carry the tidings to the disciples; lose no time therefore, but go away with all speed.”

RPW:
For I am not yet ascended (oupō gar anabebēka). Perfect active indicative. Jesus is here at all only because he has not yet gone home. He had said (Joh_16:7) that it was good for them that he should go to the Father when the Holy Spirit will come through whom they will have fellowship with the Father and Christ.

JESUS DID NOT ASCEND THAT DAY


Joh 20:17

(ALT) Jesus says to her, "Stop holding Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But be going to My brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your* Father, and [to] My God and your* God.'"

(BBE) Jesus said to her, Do not put your hand on me, for I have not gone up to the Father: but go to my brothers and say to them, I go up to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

(EMTV) Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' "

(GNB) "Do not hold on to me," Jesus told her, "because I have not yet gone back up to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them that I am returning to him who is my Father and their Father, my God and their God."

(GNT) λέγει αὐτῇ ᾿Ιησοῦς· μή μου ἅπτου· οὔπω γὰρ ἀναβέβηκα πρὸς τὸν πατέρα· πορεύου δὲ πρὸς τοὺς ἀδελφούς μου καὶ εἰπὲ αὐτοῖς· ἀναβαίνω πρὸς τὸν πατέρα μου καὶ πατέρα ὑμῶν, καὶ Θεόν μου καὶ Θεὸν ὑμῶν.

(GNT-TR+) λεγει3004 αυτη846 ο3588 ιησους2424 μη3361 μου3450 απτου680 ουπω3768 γαρ1063 αναβεβηκα305 προς4314 τον3588 πατερα3962 μου3450 πορευου4198 δε1161 προς4314 τους3588 αδελφους80 μου3450 και2532 ειπε2036 αυτοις846 αναβαινω4314 τον3588 πατερα3962 μου3450 και2532 πατερα3962 υμων5216 και2532 θεον2316 μου3450 και2532 θεον2316 υμων5216

(GNT-V) λεγει αυτη TSBο ιησους μη μου απτου ουπω γαρ αναβεβηκα προς τον πατερα TSBμου πορευου δε προς τους αδελφους μου και ειπε αυτοις αναβαινω προς τον πατερα μου και πατερα υμων και θεον μου και θεον υμων

(HOT)

(KJV) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

(KJV+) Jesus2424 saith3004 unto her,846 Touch680 me3450 not;3361 for1063 I am not yet3768 ascended305 to4314 my3450 Father:3962 but1161 go4198 to4314 my3450 brethren,80 and2532 say2036 unto them,846 I ascend305 unto4314 my3450 Father,3962 and2532 your5216 Father;3962 and2532 to my3450 God,2316 and2532 your5216 God.2316

(KJVA) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

(LITV) Jesus said to her, Do not touch Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But go to My brothers and say to them, I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God, and your God.

(MKJV) Jesus said to her, Do not touch Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But go to My brothers and say to them, I ascend to My Father and Your Father, and to My God and your God.

(Webster) Jesus saith to her, Touch me not: for I have not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God.

In Love, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, Glorify him and only him.
Dan

 

That is only evidence that Jesus had not ascended in his resurrected body.

It does not show in any way that his spirit had not ascended to the Father, in fact, Jesus stated on the cross at his death, Into thy hands I commend my spirit.

Further, Elijah and Moses were not the first to be shown from the dead, what about Samuel?

This soul sleep business is no business at all, also, if the comma is not present in the originals, then why argue over where it should be placed, just simply omit it,

"I tell you today you shall be with me in paradise".

Now, give that to a kindergarten student to read and hear the wisdom of babes speak.

Bro. Dallas

 

"...truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

makes more sense.


It doesn't make any sense!!!

It contradicts everything Jesus said: that HE would be IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH for 3days and 3nights.

"so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH" - Matt. 12:40.

Jesus knew exactly where HE was going for the next three days. Jesus knew HE was going to be grave-yard DEAD - so we would have LIFE EVERLASTING.

Jesus had to pay our DEBT, and that was DEATH.

"Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was RAISED FROM THE DEAD according to my gospel (2Tim 2:8). Paul never speaks of Jesus having enjoyed 3 glorious days in paradise. That was never part of any Apostle's GOSPEL.

 

It doesn't contradict a thing. Let me ask you a question: How was it that He was in THE HEART OF THE EARTH? Was it His body that was in the heart of the earth? No, it was His spirit. His body laid in a tomb. How did his spirit get to the heart of the earth? It must have left His body. "Absent from the body" as Paul talked about.

All this fussing about Jesus not immediately ascending. That doesn't prove a thing to promote "soul sleep." The Bible clearly states that He first DESCENDED. What descended? His body? No. His Spirit descended into the lower parts of the earth where paradise/Abraham's bosom abode. Ephesians 4 talks about it, and Jesus Himself shed light on what takes place upon the death of our bodies in Luke 16. It all lines up perfectly.

No contradiction.

 

live in your deceptions; who the [snipped] cares
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please no profanity!
Diane

[ April 26, 2004, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]

 

That'll be snipped. Nice attitude.

 

I care.
You list in your profile "Baptist." What is the name of the church that you attend?
DHK

 

Shhhhhhhhhhh! He's asleep!