1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

What has ceased?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by micahaaron, Mar 8, 2004.

  1. cotton

    cotton New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2001
    Messages:
    128
    Likes Received:
    0
    #1. Once again. Matthew 5: 17-19 Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish but to complete. I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or stroke will pass from the Torah...

    Your quote: "It is evident that Christ has abolished the law, nailed it to the cross, done away with it, fulfilled it--in order that we might have peace with him. The law brings sin and death. Through Christ alone there is peace and salvation."

    plerosai (fulfilled) - "to fill" not "do away with".

    Y'shua said he did not come to abolish-you say he did. Either your mistaken or He is.

    As far as Ephesians 2:14-why didn't you keep going to verse 16: ...and that eh might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the ENMITY thereby.

    Verse 15 states that He abolished the ENMITY the curse of the Torah, not the Torah!
    Cotton
     
  2. cotton

    cotton New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2001
    Messages:
    128
    Likes Received:
    0
    AND I did not imply that the Holy Spirit in gone; I said IF gifts have ceased...I don't believe they have.
    Cotton
     
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    So this is really an accusation that all those on this board such as Briguy, Walguy, Don, and many more who believe that the gifts have ceased, must also believe of necessity that God is dead. That is quite an arrogant insult to throw at us. The Holy Spirit is the third person of the triune Godhead in case you don't get the implication here.
    BTW Where do think God went?? Or is it more accurate to say: where do you think that we think that God has gone?
    DHK
     
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    "fulfill, complete," If it is completed it is no longer needed. It is finished. It is done away with. It's purpose has been fulfilled. Neither Jesus or I am in conflict; but it is you that does not understand the Scriptures.
    Consider:

    Romans 8:2-4 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Verse two--the law of sin and death--Old Testament law.
    Verse 3--"What the law could not do (O.T. law--the law that Israel could not keep)
    It was because that law could not save; it was weak through the flesh; therefore God sent Christ into the world. It was His death upon the cross that condemned sin in the flesh. And as Paul further says "nailed the law to the cross." Why?
    That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us--not by the law of the O.T., but by the law of Christ--which is belief in Him for salvation.

    by the cross not by the law! We are reconciled to Christ by the cross. The law has been abolished.

    The word law doesn't always refer to all the Torah, all five books of the Pentateuch. It often simply refers to either the Ten Commandments or the ceremonnial law, the levitical law that the Israelites were under the law to keep, and that we as believer are not under the law to keep (and I know that you don't), so actually you are being hypocritical in this postition.
    EXAMPLE:
    Deuteronomy 22:11 Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.

    The garments that you wear (clothing)? Are they all of the same type of cloth? Are you dressed in 100% wool, cotton, silk, denim, etc.? Or are your shirts and socks part cotton, part wool, part polyester, etc. I doubt if you are wearing 100% wool (or some other fabric) like the LAW commands you to.
    If you don't keep the law, why are you demanding that it is not abolished. If it is not abolished you had better practice it--ALL of it!

    Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
    --If you are under the law you are under the curse.
    If you do not continue in absolutely everything that is written in every part of the law, every day of your life, from birth to death, never breaking the law even once, you will be cursed. In other words just one time in your life that you transgress any part of God's law is enough to curse you. You must it says "continue in ALL things which are written in the law to do them."

    Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

    Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
    --God's law is a curse. Christ became a curse for us, that he might redeem us from the curse of the law. Thus the law is done away with. We are saved by faith in Christ.

    Galatians 3:24-25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
    --We no longer are under a schoolmaster, i.e., the law.
    DHK
     
  5. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

    Joined:
    May 16, 2001
    Messages:
    1,837
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Frozencell, since you addressed my quote I will answer you. YES, I suggest that tithing be put away with the sacrifice of animals, the stoning of certain sinners, the unclean animal stuff, etc...

    A tithe by definition was a 10% tax that God required of the nation of Isreal at a certain time. Read all the verses on tithing. For example, every 7 years a tither was to keep their tithe and spend it on themselves as part of a big celebration. Look into tithes and you will see how they applied once but do not in the new age of "grace", where we are required to give cheerfully and not out of obligation.

    DHK, thanks for all the great stuff you posted.

    DHK and I do disagree on the ceasing of ALL the gifts. I believe God still gifts us for service, not to do miracles or heal by our power. Understand this. A spiritual gift is just that, a gift. It is exchanged from God to us. We have gifts fully and WE DECIDE when and how and if we use our gifts, not God. He has given us that freedom by the nature of what a gift is. The gift becomes one with us. God does not "power up" a gift each time we use it, the gift comes with power forever attached. Like a motorized car with batteries that last forever. That said, is why I know that healings and miracles, as gifts have ceased. NOBODY can do them at will now, therefore we can deduct that they are gone, it is that simple. Any miracle or healing now is God generated, probably in response to prayer. Any person with the gift of healing could clear a hospital in a day, no problem. Gift of miracles? A person with this gift go go into funeral homes and raise the dead if they wanted. Is that happening?, no, because the gift has ceased. Those "sign" gifts were given to get the "church" started and give it authority. When the Bible was complete, the Bible became the authority and those two gifts were not needed. Hope that clears up what I said earlier.

    In Christian Love,
    Brian
     
  6. cotton

    cotton New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2001
    Messages:
    128
    Likes Received:
    0
    you wrote "by the cross not by the law! We are reconciled to Christ by the cross. The law has been abolished."

    I NEVER stated or implied that we are or anyone ever was saved by the law! Once again you say the law has been 'abolished' yet Matthews 5:17-19 states emphatically that will not happen as long as heaven and earth stand.

    No where is it written that obedience to God's word has to be perfect or kept to the letter.

    Whether I 'keep the law' or not has nothing to do with the original premiss that Brian states "all the rules of the law are done away with..." I only have to show that any one of them is still valid to negate his hypothesis.

    Gal 5:14 For the whole of the Torah is summed up in this one sentence: "Love yur neighbor as yourself"; (Lev 19:18).

    Tell me is this one still valid?

    Ephesians 6:2 "Honor your Mother and Father"-this is the first commandment that embodies a promise-"so that it may go well with you, and you may live long in the Land." (Ex. 20:12, Deut. 5:16)

    If all the rules of the Law are 'abolished' why
    does Paul quote this? If the Law is 'null and void' is the 'embodiment of promise' gone as well?

    You seem to imply that Romans 8:2-4 says that Israel failed to keep the Law, so God had to 'resort to plant "B" and send in Y'shua' (forgive me if I twist your meaning). TORAH NEVER 'BROUGHT' SALVATION; KEEPING THE TORAH WAS NEVER MEANT AS A MEANS TO SALVATION!" Y'SHUA WAS ALWAYS PLAN "A".

    Deut. 22:11 Is generally recognized by the Jews to not mix wool and linen, which to my knowledge I have never done; some also say that these commandments are only to be observed within the land of Israel (Deut 12). Since I have freedom within the law to interpret, I don't mix wool and linen.

    I concur that the Torah does not always mean the Pentatuch (sp?). Your the one that stated all the law has been done away with.

    Why did you skip over Gal 3:21-Is the Law then agains the promises of God? Certainly not! FOR IF THERE HAD BEEN A LAW GIVEN WHICH COULD HAVE GIVEN, LIFE TRULY RIGHTEOUSNESS WOULD HAVE BEEN BY THE LAW.

    This shows the law was never intended to be misused for salvation. Romans 8:3 doesn't say anything about Israel at all, it just says that the law could not bring about salvation, which is what Gal 3:21 says.

    AND WHY DO YOU STOP THERE? ROMANS 8:4 That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to th flesh but according to the Spirit.
    Why is this necessary if the law is abolished? The law is not abolished, rather from the laws' perspective, we have been slain!

    And prior to that Romans 7:12-14, Therefor the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. Has then wht is good become deatht to me? Certainly not! But SIN, THAT IT MIGHT APPEAR SIN, WAS PRODUCING DEATH IN ME THROUGH WHAT IS GOOD, SO THAT SIN THROUGH THE COMMANDMENT MIGHT BECOME EXCEEDINGLY SINFUL. For we know that the law (Torah) is spiritual, but I am coarnal, sold under sin.

    Cotton (100%, not blended with polyester)
     
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    Cotton:
    Matthew 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    All the law had not, and still has not been fulfilled. It had not been fulfilled when Jesus said that, for He had not yet been crucified. There are many, many prophecies in the law concerning his death, and the Messiah to come. There still are many promises yet to be fulfilled when He shall come a second time to set up His Millennial Kingdom. All has not been fulfilled. Your argument here does not stand. It isn't talking of the ceremonial law of the Jews, which was abolished at the cross.

    Where?
    James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
    --This verse is self-explanatory.

    Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
    --I have explained this verse before; yet it also is self-explanatory. You must continue in all things written in the law from birth to death, every day, without transgressing even once, or you are cursed—condemned. Ever told a lie??

    1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

    This is not true. According to James 2:10, a violation of any one of the laws is just as bad as violating all of the laws.

    Yes it is, and I imagine that you break it every day. If you loved your neighbor as yourself you would be a missionary to the most needy country on the face of the earth: perhaps China or India where there are the most people to reach and the least number of Christian missionaries to reach them. That is loving your neighbor. You would give all that you have to the poor and follow Christ, as Christ told the rich man. That is a part of loving your neighbor as yourself, because most of the world has nothing. They live in abject poverty with no good drinking water, no electricity, no gas for heating, etc.—things we take for granted. Do you love your neighbor as yourself? I doubt it.

    No, the reference that you give is Exodus 20:12, where God's moral law, "the Ten Commandments is given. God did not abolish that, except for the keeping of the Sabbath Day, which was a sign of the covenant with Israel (see Exodus 31). All other commandments are repeated in the New Testament. Consider this Scripture:

    Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
    All the peoples of all the nations of the world have God's moral law written on their hearts—the Ten Commandments minus keeping the Sabbath Day. That is the moral law of God which you can see in any country. People know that it is wrong to lie, steal, commit adultery, murder, etc. Their conscience bears witness to this, that these things are wrong. God has put into their hearts his moral law.

    That is correct. Salvation has always been by faith and faith alone. Faith in God as revealed in the Word of God. The law simply shows us our sinfulness. The ceremonial law and the judicial law of the Jews were abolished, nailed to the cross, when Christ paid the penalty for our sins.

    Let's look again what the passage says.

    Galatians 3:21-25 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
    --But no such law could be given that could bring righteousness, therefore God sent His Son, that we might have righteousness by believing in Him. No man can keep the law.

    22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
    --As above, no man could keep the law—all are under sin; therefore God sent Christ that all who should believe in Him might have eternal life.

    23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
    --The O.T. saints were under the law, but the law could not save them. They were "shut up" unto the faith which only afterward would be revealed. The law only showed their sinfulness.

    24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    --What is the law? It is our schoolmaster, showing our sinfulness in order to bring us to Christ.

    25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
    --Now we are no longer under the schoolmaster which is the law. It is very, very, clear here. If you reject these verses, you are rejecting the Word of God. The law is done away with. We are no longer under the law (our schoolmaster)!

    Romans 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

    Romans 8:7-9 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    --If you follow the law you are in the flesh, acting out of the flesh. God says you are none of His.
    DHK
     
  8. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,486
    Likes Received:
    0
    [​IMG]

    Briguy,

    I hate to burst your bubble, but the gifts are not seen much today because of unbelief, not because they don't exist.

    Also, they are put into action by the unction of the Holy Ghost, not by the person who operates in them.

    Working for Him,

    Tam

    :D
     
  9. micahaaron

    micahaaron New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2003
    Messages:
    156
    Likes Received:
    0
    Finally I agree with someone.
     
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    Dear Lady,
    There seemeth to be an ongoing flow of insults resulting from the camp of those who calleth themselves by the name of tongue-speakers. The one saith that we believe not that God exists. And now dear lady thou dost lay this accusation that we have not the unction of the Holy Spirit! Such unwarrnated accusations puts thyself out of favor with God and with man, not to mention with BB. Please explain thyself.
    DHK
     
  11. MEE

    MEE <img src=/me3.jpg>

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2001
    Messages:
    1,271
    Likes Received:
    0
    Finally I agree with someone. </font>[/QUOTE]Hey, that makes at least three of us. There probably would be more healings and miracles if it wasn't for that little "Blue Cross" card most of us carry, in our wallets/purses! It's easy to say, "hey doc" than it is to get down on our knees and go a little deeper into the water...ankle deep just isn't enough sometimes!

    Think about it!

    MEE [​IMG]
     
  12. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,486
    Likes Received:
    0
    [​IMG]

    I'm not the one that said somebody thought God was dead, so don't lay that on me!!

    A lot of people are saying that the gifts have ceased. My contention is that if you don't believe something, God will not force it on you.

    I did not mean to cast doubt on anyones faith in Jesus!

    It's the way it is with so many other scriptures. You read it. I read it, we both come to different conclusions.

    Still working for Him,

    Tam

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  13. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,486
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks Mee and Micahaaron, I needed that! :cool:
     
  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    MEE said:
    I do think about it. I think if MEE says is true then she should back up her words with actions, tear up those blue cross cards and all other insurance plans, go into the hospitals, walk up and down the corridors and heal all she meets. "Hey doc" isn't needed any more; just "'Hey MEE' heal me!"
    DHK
     
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    What?? No response? I guess gifts such as healing (and tongues) have really ceased!
    DHK
     
  16. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,549
    Likes Received:
    15
    There has always been and still is non-believers who speak in tongues. It has not ceased. But is there any need for it today? I see none.
     
  17. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

    Joined:
    May 16, 2001
    Messages:
    1,837
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Tam, You didn't read my posts very carefully but that is Ok, I can say it a different way. There is no distinction in the Bible that certain gifs operate different then others. We only see that God gives gifts as he wills and then we use them to edify the body, in particular, our local assemblies. Take the gift of teaching, like in a teaching pastor. I have never ever seen a pastor stand up and say I can't speak today because the Holy Spirit has not powered my gift. In fact, I have never seen a teaching pastor not answer questions addressed to them in any setting. Why? because the gift is theirs to use as they want. How about administrations. Ever hear of an elder showing up to an elers meeting and saying, I can't meet today because the Holy Spirit hasn't given me the power to use my gift today. You have to understand that a gift, by nature, is something fully given from one to another, in this case, God to us. He gives, we receive and use, as with any present we receive on our birthday.

    It is an easy out to say that unbelief is why we don't see the gifts. Your unbelief or the worlds unbelief? Peter took the hand of the crippled man and said get up and walk, the man didn't really know what was happening, he wanted money from Peter, not a healing.

    Carol, DHK made a good point about the hospitals as well.

    Please address the comments and concepts me and DHK have said, directly, not just with other concepts. Thanks much. I didn't take any comments personally that were made, so fire away whatever you think you need to say.

    In Christian Love and concern,
    Brian
     
  18. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

    Joined:
    May 16, 2001
    Messages:
    1,837
    Likes Received:
    0
    GB, Non-believers who speak in tongues would be "Pagans"

    Believers who speak in tongues are just, "mistaken"

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  19. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,486
    Likes Received:
    0
    [​IMG]

    Briguy, DHK and all the others who are insisting on believing fairy tales:

    ME THINKS THOU DOST PROTEST TOO MUCH

    Tam,

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Jude

    Jude <img src=/scott3.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2001
    Messages:
    2,680
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not "needed" today? Why? Second, he 'blab-it-and-grab-it' crowd, the 'Faith Movement' which is heretical, faking 'gifts of the Spirit' doesn't negate the reality of said gifts.

    Dr Bob, when your people are in the hospital, do you pray for their healing? When a problem comes to your parish, don't you pray for 'wisdom' and 'protection'? Just wondering...
     
Loading...