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What has happened to "Thus saith the LORD?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Comrade, Sep 18, 2004.

  1. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Ok, my point is not clear enough. I will not tell you that you cannot be fed from an MV, and that if you believe it and apply it to your life, that you cannot grow in Christ through it. If anyone tells you that, they are wrong. God can use any version to accomplish the task at hand. What has happened though, is the general attitude of Christians (read ALL Christianity, not just fundamental Baptists) toward the authority of the Word has been diminished. The average Christian doesn't think it even matters what the word of God says, because it's not about what God says, it's about having a personal relationship with the Lord (meaning they know in their heart what God wants, they don't need a bible to tell them.) Many do not believe that they can truly know God's will. If I tell a man on the street, who professes to believe on Christ, that the bible says such-and-such, he comes back with 'Well, thats just a book. It was written by men, not God.' He believes the same thing you do about the bible, he just applies it differently to his own walk with the Lord. This is not causing any increase in reverence for God's word, rather we are seeing a falling away (just like the bible predicted.) This falling away is not limited to churches and Christians who read MV's. KJVO does not = instant holiness. Once again, you have to read, understand, apply, and most of all, believe. There is no reason for anyone to read the KJV if they arent going to believe it, and obey the commandments therein.
     
  2. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    Can you prove this true in every case? I think not. :rolleyes:

    AVL1984
     
  3. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    I believe this is common excuse used by KJVO's. I recall people like David Koresh, Joseph Smith, and Jim Jones using the KJV. I don't see a correlation between the many using the MV's over the KJV as an entering of a dark age. I see it as progress towards making the Word of God more understandable in todays venacular. The fundamentals of the faith and the doctrines are all intact in the MV's. Wrong decision isn't based on the version one uses, but by the actions that they take in their lives daily, such as not listening to the leading of the Holy Spirit, or refusing to acknowledge sin as sin and making excuses for it. But to try and blame the MV's for the problem is downright ludicrous. :rolleyes:
    :eek:

    AVL1984
     
  4. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    Funny how many like to conveniently forget that man judges from the outward appearance but GOD judges from the heart. It gives many a chance to libel/slander their brethren and show their own true condition in heart. Then, when the tables are turned, they want to bring up "who art thou to judge another man's servant" or "judge not"...It's a shame. To force someone to obey is to not to gain willful obedience.

    AVL1984
     
  5. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    The answer to your question is simple my friend, and it has nothing to do from what Bible the preachers are preaching about in those churches (as some alleges in this thread), but the answer lies in the fact that those churches, you are referring to, have ceased to preach from the BIBLE at all! [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]Barnabas, this is very true. I have been in many Baptist churches that preach politics, magazine articles, etc., but have no time for what God has said. There are many good, strong Baptist churches out there still preaching the Word of God, though, and I thank the Lord that they still take a stand.

    AVL1984
     
  6. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    Please, prove that assertion, Mr. Ward. I know many MV users who live more Godly lives than many KJV users I know, including myself. :eek:

    AVL1984
     
  7. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    Another attack on KJV from a Christian??? :eek:

    Because of Christ,
    Deborah
    </font>[/QUOTE]Deborah, I believe go2 is speaking of the KJVO faction of the Christian churches, not the KJV itself. Sometimes the term KJV is used interchangeably with KJVO, though it shouldn't be.

    AVL1984
     
  8. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    Amen, Granny Gumbo, and praise the Lord for your testimony. [​IMG] God bless you!

    AVL1984
     
  9. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Nope, not if you understand the issue.

    Ebonics is not a legitimate form of language. And holding fast the form of sound words has nothign to do with this issue. As is typical of a KJVO, you yank a phrase out of context in desparation.

    Nor it is necessary. Just get a translation in your own language.


    God wrote the Bible. The real issues are the promises of God, the providence of God demonstrated in history vs. the illegitimate and unfounded claims of KJVO.

    I have done it many times, as have others. This is easy; it has been done.

    Providencd of church history combined with the testimony of Scripture shows this very clearly. TExtual criticism has always been used to compile texts. Erasmus used it with the TR, as did Scrivener. So did everyone who has every compiled a Greek text or HEbrew text, or made a translation.

    No, recognized by all liguists who have studied this issue.

    It is interesting to see you appeal to man's wisdom so much. Your whole KJVO philosophy comes straight from man. You have no biblical basis for whatsoever.

    when you attack good translations such as teh NASB, you are attacking God's word.

    Yes, you are. I have talked to people who have no idea if they can trust their Bible because of people like you attacking it.

    I agree.

    Nope, not a chance. Completely wrong.

    No, I think you have been the victim of false teachers.

    Because they know what they are talking about. They simply don't obey the word. Truth from an unbeliever or disobedient person is still truth.
     
  10. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    Wow, it only took 6 posts to inject false doctrine into the thread. </font>[/QUOTE]Does this surprise you, Johnv? It doesn't me. :(

    AVL1984
     
  11. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    Actually, MTA, the KJV IS Copyrighted. :eek:

    AVL1984
     
  12. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    I find that there is a balance between those that use the KJV or the MV's as far as standards go. Standards aren't relative to either the KJV or the MV's. They ARE however, relative to the condition of ones heart. [​IMG]

    Hey, Granny, if your pastor starts to stomp and snort, make sure you have plenty of hay or oats on hand! LOL ;)

    AVL1984
     
  13. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    I guess you are coreect because mv lovers will obviously continue to spread their lies, as long as Bible believers continue to take a stand for truth and have a Godly standard instead of a self pelasing one. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Sorry, Jim, MV users aren't spreading lies. They believe the Bible every bit as much as the users of the KJV. It's the divisive KJVO's who are constantly on the attack against their brethren who use MV's that are pleasing themselves, always trying to stir up trouble. :eek:

    AVL1984
     
  14. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    They do not all say the same thing, because not all translators agree on what is the best wording, and what text is closest to the original, etc...
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    But those aren't real disputes about the word of God itself. That argument is often brought up and it just shows how uninformed some people are about the real issues involved.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    If they arent disputes about the word of God, then who do you think wrote the bible? You can call me uninformed, but please inform me after doing so. What are the real issues involved?

    ok, I don't understand how the promises of God are not related to God's word? You put history against the KJV. What about scripture? How did God provide scripture to the Jews in SCRIPTURE? Why is it that as soon as the book is closed, God left the scene and handed His word off to the capable hands of the scribes and the pharisees? I suppose that when God promised to preserve you, you think He meant that a team of specially trained angels would try to piece your atoms back together and get you within 99% accuracy? If God preserved His word perfectly in the KJV, it does not follow that He had to do it through worldly means. It does not follow that there always had to be a perfect word on the earth that man could hold in his hand. I edited this because it didn't sound like what I meant to say... There is no example in scripture of God using multiple copies of scripture and the critical skills of the scribes to provide the word of God to His people.
    What word would you have them obey, brother? You have already told them that there is no word of God.
     
  15. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    I agree completely. It isn't that people are using MV's and then falling away but rather that they reject the authority of any and every version of the Bible.
    I agree with you again.

    That's one of the things KJVO's bring up as a "proof" for KJVOnlyism. They say things like "God showed it to me", "I just have faith instead of doubting", "I just know in my heart", "Its the only one that speaks to me", etc. Nothing based on the Bible itself, just feelings.

    I had a friend and former pastor tell me that God told him to believe KJVO... truth is, I think it was more his wife than God.
    That's a matter of ignorance or a lack of faith. The proofs for the accuracy of many faithful English versions is overwhelming to the point of making the claim you cite above beyond ridiculous. Once you get over the textual accuracy issue, the question becomes "Do you believe the message?" And that has nothing to do with versions.
    If he does then I would personally doubt his profession or at least his knowledge. The Bible claims inspiration for itself in every version that I know of. To claim otherwise is to reject scripture... the only foundation for knowing Jesus.
    No he doesn't and you should apologize for saying that. I do not believe it is just a book written by man not God.

    Translations are made by men. Copies are made by men. The originals and the message it revealed were breathed out by God Himself. I have no doubt that faithful versions authoritatively transmit that message.
    I doubt that someone that has that opinion of the Bible is interested in a walk with the Lord whatsoever. Someone who does not accept, treasure, and obey God's Word has problems bigger than what version you put in front of him.
    If they are actually reading and studying the MV's it probably doesn't even include those churches.
    Boy could I tell you a few stories on that one....

    The fact is that KJVO does not = more holiness than MV user.
    Amen.

    The problem is that I know people in KJVO churches that don't study the Bible at all. Not because they wouldn't but because they struggle with reading today's English (much less KJV English) and are afraid to use an MV.

    Who do you think will be more holy and spiritually mature? A person who reads, studies, and applies the NIV or the person who is KJVO and only learns the Bible from church?
     
  16. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    I agree completely. It isn't that people are using MV's and then falling away but rather that they reject the authority of any and every version of the Bible.
    I agree with you again.

    That's one of the things KJVO's bring up as a "proof" for KJVOnlyism. They say things like "God showed it to me", "I just have faith instead of doubting", "I just know in my heart", "Its the only one that speaks to me", etc. Nothing based on the Bible itself, just feelings.

    I had a friend and former pastor tell me that God told him to believe KJVO... truth is, I think it was more his wife than God.
    That's a matter of ignorance or a lack of faith. The proofs for the accuracy of many faithful English versions is overwhelming to the point of making the claim you cite above beyond ridiculous. Once you get over the textual accuracy issue, the question becomes "Do you believe the message?" And that has nothing to do with versions.
    If he does then I would personally doubt his profession or at least his knowledge. The Bible claims inspiration for itself in every version that I know of. To claim otherwise is to reject scripture... the only foundation for knowing Jesus.
    No he doesn't and you should apologize for saying that. I do not believe it is just a book written by man not God.

    Translations are made by men. Copies are made by men. The originals and the message it revealed were breathed out by God Himself. I have no doubt that faithful versions authoritatively transmit that message.
    I doubt that someone that has that opinion of the Bible is interested in a walk with the Lord whatsoever. Someone who does not accept, treasure, and obey God's Word has problems bigger than what version you put in front of him.
    If they are actually reading and studying the MV's it probably doesn't even include those churches.
    Boy could I tell you a few stories on that one....

    The fact is that KJVO does not = more holiness than MV user.
    Amen.

    The problem is that I know people in KJVO churches that don't study the Bible at all. Not because they wouldn't but because they struggle with reading today's English (much less KJV English) and are afraid to use an MV.

    Who do you think will be more holy and spiritually mature? A person who reads, studies, and applies the NIV or the person who is KJVO and only learns the Bible from church?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Now you see that we can agree on some things, regardless of what version we hold to be true. But there are some things we cannot agree on, because there are some things that the KJV stands alone in. If I personally see that the King James bible is internally consistant within itself, ie there are no contradictions in it that cannot be reasonably and logically resolved, but another version introduces an inconsistency based on its supposed better rendering, why is it ungodly for me to believe the KJV is perfect?
     
  17. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    Yes. I disagree with this statement.
    I actually agree with this in all matters of substance.

    That would not apply to things like Ahaziah's age when he began to reign. It seems a stretch to say that this was anything other than a very early copyist error.
    I believe that these inconsistencies in faithful versions can be "reasonably and logically resolved" as well.

    This is usually a case of double standards by KJVO's. They use methods to resolve difficulties in the KJV but then cry foul when the same methods/logic is used to resolve difficulties in MV's.
    I believe the KJV is perfect in the sense of being whole, complete, lacking nothing essential to its kind.

    I do not believe that the KJV is perfect in the sense that each and every word and phrase was chosen by God (or man) to the exclusion of every other option.
     
  18. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    I find myself agreeing with ScottJ 100%
     
  19. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Because you don't even understand the conversation. You have shown that several times already. Listen to me here: Whether or not God promised to preserve his word is irrelevant. I believe that he did promise that, but it doesn't matter. The fact remains that God did preserve his word, with or without a promise.

    I haven't put history against the KJV. You have done that. The Scripture routinely verifies that our position is the biblical one. We have already shown that.

    Direct revelation, something he did not give to the KJV translators.

    I don't think God left the scene, and he certainly didn't leave it only in the hands of scribes and Pharisees. But even at that, he did work through a donkey to accomplish his will so I suppose the scribes and Pharisees would be no problem for him to use.

    No, but that is a completely different topic. God did say how he would preserve us, spirit, soul, and body until the day of Christ.

    True ... no one is making that claim.

    True, which means that we don't have to have a perfect word now. The KJVOs keep saying that since God promised preservation it has to be somewhere that we can hold in our hand. You have just refuted your own position.

    There is no example in Scripture of God using the KJV, or any single version for that matter. But there is a clear example of the use of multiple versions, and that can be seen by comparing OT quotes with NT citations of them. You will plainly see that they are not 100% identical.

    This remains a matter of submission to God's word and God's truth. When you submit to God's doctrine, you can freely use and prefer the KJV, but you cannot insist that it is the only word of God.
     
  20. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Because you don't even understand the conversation. You have shown that several times already. Listen to me here: Whether or not God promised to preserve his word is irrelevant. I believe that he did promise that, but it doesn't matter. The fact remains that God did preserve his word, with or without a promise.
    </font>[/QUOTE]You say it is irrelevant what the bible says. I get it. Thats the point. What the bible says IS THE ONLY THING that is relevant. You treat the bible like any other book. By applying the philosophy and accepted methods of criticism, you believe that YOU can determine what God said. I believe in a God who supernaturally formed this world and everything in it in 7 days. I believe in a God who has raised people from the dead. I believe that God HAS preserved His word WITHOUT YOU having to intervene for Him. I believe this based on a number of things, not the least of which is the promise to preserve His word IN His word.
    I haven't put history against the KJV. You have done that. The Scripture routinely verifies that our position is the biblical one. We have already shown that.

    Direct revelation, something he did not give to the KJV translators.
    </font>[/QUOTE]This is not always the case, as I'm sure has been shown numerous times and duly ignored, I am sure. Sometimes God returns His word to His people through means other than direct revelation, but it never involves the people having to dig it out of garbage cans and piece it together from fragments. Now even if that has been done in the past and you think that because the NT quotes of the OT do not match that proves it (which is a poor argument), that still does not make that the ONLY way God's word will be preserved in ANY form, nor does that imply that it is God's FAVORITE way of preserving His word.
    I don't think God left the scene, and he certainly didn't leave it only in the hands of scribes and Pharisees. But even at that, he did work through a donkey to accomplish his will so I suppose the scribes and Pharisees would be no problem for him to use.
    </font>[/QUOTE]So if He could work through a donkey, surely He could work through the KJV translators. But now that we have a translation in English, the donkeys want to keep on making new ones. Stubborn donkeys...
    No, but that is a completely different topic. God did say how he would preserve us, spirit, soul, and body until the day of Christ.

    True ... no one is making that claim.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Well it sure sounds like it. It seems the method you suggest God used to preserve His word is the same method He uses to preserve works like Ovid's Heroides. This is akin to saying that God created the universe through the Big Bang. God created Adam and Eve through evolution. How did God part the Red Sea? How did God cause the sun to stand still? God is a supernatural God and He does not rely on the intervention of Man to accomplish His goals.
    True, which means that we don't have to have a perfect word now. The KJVOs keep saying that since God promised preservation it has to be somewhere that we can hold in our hand. You have just refuted your own position.
    </font>[/QUOTE]If God DID preserve His word, then it is perfectly preserved. You say He did, but deny He could do it perfectly. You do not believe in a preserved word of God any more than you believe that the NIV you read at night is the word of God. It's just a picture of God's word, right? And an imperfect picture at that.
    There is no example in Scripture of God using the KJV, or any single version for that matter. But there is a clear example of the use of multiple versions, and that can be seen by comparing OT quotes with NT citations of them. You will plainly see that they are not 100% identical.
    </font>[/QUOTE]How would you explain this brother? You think maybe that there was a Hebrew OT, and maybe there was a Greek OT? Maybe the Greek OT that Jesus quoted from was the perfectly preserved Word translated from Hebrew to Greek(or Aramaic or whatever!)? Maybe it is a straw man?
    Yes brother, just like I cannot insist that a homosexual believe that sodomy is a sin, or that a Christian will stand before his Lord and be judged for his works and may suffer loss of more than a few crowns. I don't know what God really said, and therefore I must submit to the perpetual refinement of Gods word by the silversmiths of these last days to tell me when I'm wrong. When you are finished refining God's word, will you please give me a heads up, so I can finally sit down and believe that I can know what God wants from me with a little better than 99% accuracy? I hate to play those odds when dealing with my soul.
     
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