WHAT IF Pretribulation doctrine is wrong....

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by DeafPosttrib, Mar 2, 2004.

  1. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    To Ed,

    You say, you believe in pretribulation doctrine for 52 years. That's long time.

    I believed in pretribulation doctrine for only 3 years till my friend showed me of verses, that caused me left pretrib, because these verses do not fit pretrib doctrine.

    I ask you,

    WHAT IF pretribulation doctrine is wrong.

    What would you do????

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  2. TC

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    Pre-trib doctrine reminds me of all those Christians in China that were told that God wouldn't let them go through any persecution. They were told that God would intervene and keep them from wrath. Well, China turned communist and the Church was greatly persecuted. Many of those that thought they would be exempt from trouble were totally unprepared. To save themselves, many turned and denied the faith. I think that it is better to prepare for the worst and hope for the best. i.e. It's better to prepare for tribulation and then get raptured than to prepare for rapture and then get tribulation.
     
  3. preachinjesus

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    Being that I don't readily believe in the tribulation (I'm a historical premill) I guess it doesn't matter much.

    Actually that is my view and take on eschatology. It is interesting to talk about, and we should certainly proclaim the second coming of Christ from the rooftops, but it is mostly theological rambling.

    What if Pretribulationalism is wrong? I guess we're going to be here a bit longer... [​IMG]
     
  4. DeafPosttrib

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    In America, we have been petting like as pet living so very comfortable. We are sleeping in rose bed.

    Late Carrie Ten Boom warned us in her book, she said, America will be the next last nation to face coming terrible persecutions. I agree with her. She experinced persecutions during World War II, while she protected Jews in her house during Holcaust. She was a truly born again Christian. I highly respect her very well. She spoken against pretribulation doctrine. I agree with her.

    WHAT IF the Antichrist is already revealed, what would you do?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  5. Ed Edwards

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    You use the
    term different than i do.
    You probably think when the Antichrist enters
    the Temple in Jerusalem and declares that
    he is God, that is the revelation of
    the A/C. I believe that will happen at
    the mid-tribulation period crisis. At
    the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel,
    the A/C will be revealed (to those in
    the know) when he brings peace to Yisreal.

    I understand (from 20th century persons,
    not from the Bible) that the modern
    Pharases and other Jewish sects believe
    when Messiah comes, he will do three
    things (and can be recognized as the Messiah
    by them):

    1. Bring peace to Yisrael
    2. restore the daily sacrifice in Yerusalem
    3. rebuild the Temple.

    I believe it is the other way around, whoever
    does these things will be known by the Jews
    as the Messiah, but will instead be the
    antimessiah. The real Messiah is Jesus.

    Anyway, until Israeli and Palestini
    start having block parties together,
    you don't need to worry that A/C has
    been revealed.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. LadyEagle

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    If the pretribulation doctrine is wrong, then Christians in the West will be suffering, being butchered, raped, imprisoned, starved, tortured, and killed just like our brothers & sisters in Christ in many parts of the world. What makes us in the West, particularly Americans, so special that we will not suffer? I have asked myself that question.

    I believe in the pretribulation rapture, but I have asked myself the question - what will I be willing to suffer for Jesus Christ if it comes down to that? We whine if the restaurant overcooks or undercooks our steak. We whine about whether or not it is a sin for a woman to wear pants to church. We debate (argue) about Bible versions. We moan whether our favorite team is going to make the playoffs. We trash each other in the Name of Christ because it makes us feel righteous. We are even arguing about the merit or lack of merit of a movie on this very board.

    Corrie ten Boom may be right. Rather than arguing about a pre-trib or post-trib rapture, we should all be asking ourselves if we will be able to endure to the end, should it come to that, shouldn't we? Shouldn't we be winning as many people to the Lord Jesus Christ as possible? Am I willing to lay down my life for my brother or sister? Are you willing to lay down your life for me? Are we willing to lay down our lives for Jesus?

    Perhaps some terrible times are coming in the USA. I believe they are & some people think I'm paranoid. Maybe. Maybe not. At any rate, I do believe we are seeing end time prophecy being fulfilled before our eyes. But some of us have blind eyes or choose not to see.

    Pastors should be preparing their flocks for the inevitable hard times that will eventually end up in the West should we happen to be wrong about the pretribulation rapture. Shouldn't they?
     
  7. Trotter

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    DeafPosttrib,

    If it is, then I will be very surprised, to say the least. But I will know that I worked hard to bring all that I can into the Kingdom beforehand.

    If it is, I will still be as prepared as any other Christian to die for my Lord, as almost all Christians will do during the Tribulation.

    If it is, I will be well armed with the word of God that I have preached faithfully for Him, able to continue until my body lies stiff and cold.

    But, let me ask you something. What if it is not? Where do you stand? What are you doing to further His Kingdom? Are you ready for the trumpet call, just in case? Or are you living like you will have a seven-year warning before He returns?

    I know my answers. Do you?

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  8. Ed Edwards

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    Did you see the PASSION OF THE CHRIST
    movie? Did you see His beating? This is
    what the 7-year Tribulation period will
    be like for the saved.

    Revelation 6:16 tells what will happen to
    the unsaved about mid-tribulation,
    they will plead for the mountains to
    kill them, but won't be able to die.

    I'm not going into the Tribulation Period.
    I'm not letting my family go into the
    Tribulation Period. I will take the
    necessary actions to prevent me and
    my family form entering the Tribulation Period.

    BTW, i do believe in Once Saved, Always
    saved as "any means" includes stuff that
    i can't put on a public board. In the
    Church age (i.e. now) it is a sin to
    do such things; in the Tribulation Period
    it will be a requirement (if the
    Rapture/resurrection doesn't come first)

    Have you read of what happens to Christains
    in the Sudan (early 1990s)? The Muslim
    armed persons play baby-on-a-bayonet with
    the baby, carry the teens (both sexes) off
    to sell as sex slaves,
    then they rape the wife to death,
    then they kill the husband. If tribulations
    of the Chruch age are like this, what
    will the tribulations of the Tribulation
    Period be like?

    :eek:
     
  9. Ed Edwards

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    LadyEagle: "If the pretribulation doctrine is wrong,
    then Christians in the West will be suffering,
    being butchered, raped, imprisoned, starved, tortured,
    and killed just like our brothers & sisters in Christ
    in many parts of the world. What makes us in the West,
    particularly Americans, so special that we will not suffer?
    I have asked myself that question."

    Nobody, i mean NOBODY, teaches the doctrine that anybody
    deserves to be raptured. Correct me if somebody does.
    I've not heard it. All i've every heard the idea from is
    knee-jerk posties. There is no set of super-saints that
    deserve to be raptured before the Tribulation Period.

    Now who will get raptured before the Tribulation Period?
    The ones who are in Jesus when the Second Coming, phase one
    starts. God has a plan to save the maximum number of
    Jewish Israeli and to bring judgement to the earth.
    It is called the Tribulation Period.

    Get it straight, the pre-tribulation rapture is to
    further God's eternal plan of redemption - it is not
    to bail out some supersaints.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. LadyEagle

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    I know that, Brother Ed. You misunderstood my post. But you bring up an interesting point - maybe some people think it is a bail out.

    I didn't imply that & I've never heard that. I am just wondering why we (generally speaking) in the West think that we are going to be raptured and not have to undergo any persecution. I've never heard a pastor or preacher preach about Americans having to undergo persecution before Jesus comes for His church. It's always going to be "after" the Tribulation starts.
     
  11. Ed Edwards

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    I have no idea where this baseless rumor got started.
    Don't people preach the gospel anymore?
    The Bible clearly says we Christians
    are always subject to tribulation
    (not subject to the Tribulation Period
    which is wrath of God).

    Ed's canned music [​IMG]
    --------------------------

    The Five Tribulations
    of the Holy Bible
    Contrasted and compared
    by ed

    The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
    tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
    WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
    affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
    misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
    anguish, torment, adversity,
    travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
    famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
    WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
    to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
    God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
    maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
    WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
    even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
    WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
    few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
    gift of martyrdom

    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
    WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
    WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
    usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
    WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
    (from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

    4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
    WHO: citizens of the world
    WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
    WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

    5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
    WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
    WHAT: the wrath of God
    WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

    Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
    Period found in the O.T.:

    The tribulation in Deut 4:30
    the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
    the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
    the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
    The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
    The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
    The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
    The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
    The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
    See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Dr. Bob

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    That'll preach, Ed.

    BTW, the REAL question is why DON'T some people want to believe in the rapture of the bride to heaven for the marriage supper while all hell is dished out on earth?

    To me, it is inconceivable that folks wouldn't FLOCK to the "rapture" doctrine as the ultimate glory of our Blessed Savior!

    Maybe still seeking pain and penance, like Mel? Maybe afraid of being caught in sin by the imminent return of Christ?

    Without the rapture, there is no imminency in the return of Christ. He CAN'T come back today.
     
  13. Watchman

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    Here we have a, "What-if" question. Okay, well, there will be some changes, in the world, but the Lord will be the same. He promised that He will never leave us, nor forsake us. Also that He will be with us onto the end of the world. The tribulation is not the end of the world.
    Do we trust The Lord, or fret the future?
    THAT would seem to be the REAL question.
     
  14. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Brother Dr. Bob -- Preach it! [​IMG]

    I pray to God you can have a 2 or less pain
    day today with lot's of good success. Amen.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Ed Edwards

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    Watchman: "Here we have a, "What-if" question.
    Okay, well, there will be some changes,
    in the world, but the Lord will be the same.
    He promised that He will never leave us, nor forsake us.

    Amen, Brother Watchman -- Preach it! [​IMG]

    Watchman: " Also that He will be with us onto the end of the world.
    The tribulation is not the end of the world."

    Actually, Jesus didn't teach He will be with us to the
    end of the cosmos but to the end of the aeon.
    In English that is Jesus will be with us to the end
    of the age, not the end of the world.
    The tribulation period is not the end of the world (cosmos).
    The tribulation period is the end of the age (aeon).

    Matthew 28:20 (KJV1611):

    Teaching them to observe all things
    whatsoever I have commanded you:
    and, lo, I am with you alway,
    even unto the end of the world. Amen.


    Matthew 28:20 (NASB):

    teaching them to observe all that
    I commanded you;
    and lo, I am with you always,
    even to the end of the age."


    For at the end of the age, prior to the Tribulation
    Period, the Lord shall come and get those
    unworthy souls that remain and with the
    resurrected dead go to heaven for the biggest
    church social ever, the whole church of the
    whole church age. Somebody gonna shout amen
    or do i have to do it myself? AMEN!

    Watchman: "Do we trust The Lord, or fret the future?
    THAT would seem to be the REAL question."

    Amen, Brother Watchman -- Preach it! [​IMG]
    The whole purpose of eschatology is pure
    living (see 2 Peter 3 especially verses 11 and 18)

    May God grant good success unto Brother Watchman,
    his family, and his ministry. Amen!
     
  16. DeafPosttrib

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    I'm back.

    Dr. Bob Griffin,

    No one saying it. I never saying it. Many posttribbers believe we will be caught up to meet Christ for the marriage of the lamb.

    We shall never suffer the wrath. Wrath is for the unbelievers only. We are appointed for tribulation - 1 Thess. 3:3-4. But, we are not appointed for the wrath - 1 Thess. 5:9. Because we are saved through Jesus Christ, we shall not face the wrath for send go to hell. Wrath is not tribulation. Both are different definition. Wrath comes from God with His fierce, angry to punish upon the people who reject Jesus Christ, and refuse to repent of their sins, also receive the mark of the beast too, send them to hell. That is God's wrath. We are appointed for the tribulation, because Jesus Christ suffered so much for us, that we should follow Christ's example - 1 Peter 2:21.

    No Christian want to seek for suffering and persecution. But Christ tells us, that we shall have tribulations - John 16:33, but He tells us, that we should be CHEER, because Christ already overcome them(Calvary). James 1:2 tells us, we should be always be rejoice or joy when we face trials, temptations, even persecutions too. Do not forget Romans 5:2-5, that Paul tells us, that we should stay in the hope no matter what kind of situations we face. Hope is same as faith with joy.

    Many Christians are still not ready to face Christ, while they are stay in sins. WE must always be ready and be watch daily in our life, what IF we die today by car accident, shot, heart attack, etc. we must be readyto face the judgement. Many Christians do not want to hear about the judgement seat of Christ, even no one want to hear about the great white throne too.

    Judgement is not funny.

    Myself admit I am not ready for the judgement. I never satisfy with my spiritual life. I have to keep on fighting with my faith toward Lord daily is not easy. What IF Christ comes today, I am happy to see Jesus and home. Many posttribbers would not be upset if Christ comes today, many will be excited and happy to see Christ in heaven, no problem. But judgement? Judgment is not funny!

    All of us shall be trembling and fear face Christ shall judge us in the judgement day, that why we are work out your own salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING - Phil 2:12.

     
  17. LadyEagle

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    There is no such thing as the "end" of the world. There will be a new heaven and new earth, but the earth will not cease to be. ;)
     
  18. firedome

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  19. just-want-peace

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    What if? what IF the Catholics are right about their view of the Lord's Supper. Is your (generic "YOUR") salvation or faith changed IF you find out they're correct?
    Not mine! I do not believe this concept (actual blood etc) but should I find out I'm wrong I'll just say "Oops, sorry 'bout that!" No change in my relation with Christ!!

    Same if the pre-trib belief is wrong. I believe, like Lady Eagle, that there's a very good chance that Christians will face persecutions in this country before the return of Christ. If so, I pray that I and all my family are up to the challenge and will remain faithful to Him. So just because the pre-trib may be fact (as I believe) that's certainly no guarantee of missing any persecution.

    So it's really a moot point as to whether the pre-trib is correct as far as avoiding persecution; what difference will it make if I'm persecuted for being a Christian today, as is common in so much of the world today, or in the future if it's because the tribulation has started?

    Oh, one more of my trigger points; it seems so foolish (being kind) to claim that the pre-trib is wrong just because Jesus said that you will face persecution. I have known many who have never faced persecution (didn't say NO problems; just NO persecution) that are dead now, so that argument does not hold any water.
    [​IMG]
     
  20. donnA

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    What if it isn't?
     

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