What is a heretick?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by John3v36, May 7, 2004.

  1. John3v36

    John3v36
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    Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

    What is a heretick?
    What would someone have to believe before you would Brand them a Heretick?
    AND
    How would you apply the above passage?
     
  2. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore
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    Christian Cyclopedia

    We should pray for but not with heretics.
     
  3. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    Looks like nobody wants to tackle this one! Could it be because some of our resident heretiks might come out and bite back??

    :D [​IMG] (joke, joke)

    Come on, lets see some dialogue.

    Tam
     
  4. Brother Adam

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  5. Paul of Eugene

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    2 John 1:7 - 11
    For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.
     
  6. John3v36

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    Okay! OKAY, can you give an example?
    What teaching have you heard that when you heard it you would say
    “That came straight from the pit of hell”?
    :eek: :eek: :eek:
     
  7. DHK

    DHK
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    One of the earliest was baptismal regeneration--that baptism saves, or is a part of salvation.
    This in turn led to infant baptism, for if baptism saves, we had better do it as soon as possible to insure of everyone's salvation.
    It does away with faith in the shed blood of Christ, and salvation by the grace of God.
    DHK
     
  8. Armando

    Armando
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    If DHK is correct then, Peter is the first heretic:

    1 Peter 3,21 "Baptism now save us"

    :eek:

    Armando
     
  9. Bro Tony

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    It appears that Armando has continued to fall into the RC misunderstanding that there is a difference between water baptism and the genuine baptism of the Holy Spirit. There is no water in 1 Peter 3:21.

    I am always amazed that members of a church that does not practice believer's (biblical) baptism continue to promote their false teachings that salvation comes through the sacraments of their church. Even a sprinkling instead of the biblical mode of baptism--by immersion.
     
  10. Me2

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    1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

    1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    Exactly as stated.

    those who state that Jesus blood doesnt cover all sin.

    those who state that the spirit of Jesus is not the ONLY "mediator" between God and all men.

    those who cannot confess the 2nd coming of the resurrected spirit of the righteous man..jesus christ into their own flesh today. (and this is not concerning the dwelling of the Holy Spirit)

    yet if one were to really read titus.

    the whole letter describes what and who the heretic is. and keep in mind heretics come in two flavors. the antichrist and false prophet.

    Me2
     
  11. Frank

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    The Bible teaches many things are essential to salvation. Consider the following:
    1. Faith.( Hebrews 11:6).
    2. Belief. ( John 8:24).
    3. Repentance. ( Luke 13:3,5).
    4. Confession. ( Mat. 10:32).
    5. Baptism ( Mark 16:16).
    6. Blood. ( Rev. 1:5).
    7. Word. ( James 1:18,21).
    8. Grace. ( Acts 15:11).
    9. Faithfulness. ( Rev. 2:10).
    The Bible teaches that all of these are essential for salvation.
     
  12. DHK

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    1 Peter 3:21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;
    --What saves? A true likeness does now save you. That doesn’t even say that baptism saves. It says that a likeness saves. This is a figure of speech or a similie—"after a true likeness."
    To fully understand this verse you must know the context:

    1 Peter 3:20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:
    --The context is Noah, and how he was saved. Was Noah saved by the water or by the Ark? The water was the means by which the world and the inhabitants were destroyed. It was an instrument of destruction to the people; an instrument of cleansing to the earth. It was the ark that saved Noah. The ark was a picture of Christ. They were safe in the Ark, as the believer is safe in Christ. The ark was immersed in the oceans of the deep, the waves slapping on the sides of the ark, the rains coming from above. It was immersed. The word baptism is simply a word meaning “immersed.” It does not always refer to water baptism, nor even to spirit baptism. It is simply a word meaning immersed. The ark was immersed in water. The ark was the instrument of salvation to Noah, as Christ is the instrument of salvation to every believer. Without Christ you cannot be saved. Without the ark they could not be saved.

    In verse 21 it says “also after a true likeness does now save you.” What is the true likeness.” What is the true likeness? That Jesus saves. As the ark saved now, being baptized in the waters of the flood, Jesus saves, being baptized unto death, and it is our identification with him (by our faith) that saves us. It is a picture, a likeness. It even says it is.

    “Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh. It does not refer to the removal of physical defilement. Physical water (such as baptism) is able to clean physical dirt. That is the function of water. Water cleans dirt. This is not speaking of water baptism. The Jews were familiar with ritual washings which did provide a sort of external cleansing. Peter says it is not this type of cleansing.
    Water, of any kind, including baptismal water, cannot provide a clear conscience toward God. Only a personal relationship with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection can do that.

    How can one have a righteous standing before God? The answer is exactly what Peter wrote. It is the baptism of which Peter has been speaking—Christ’s baptism unto death at Calvary and one’s personal acceptance of that work. By Christ’s death the sin question was settled once for all.
    “Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” We know that God is satisfied with the atoning work of Christ because Christ arose from the dead. A clear conscience is inseparably linked with the resurrection of Jesus Christ: they stand or fall together. If Christ had not risen we could never be sure that our sins had been put away.
    My only claim for a good conscience is base on the death burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus. The order is as follows:
    1. Christ was baptized unto death for me at Calvary.
    2. When I trust Him as Lord and Saviour, I am spiritually united with Him in His death, burial and resurrection.
    3. Through knowledge that He has risen, my request for a clear conscience is answered.
    4. In water baptism, I give visible expression to the spiritual deliverance I have already experienced.
    DHK
     
  13. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    A heritic is someone who latches onto some oddball doctrine that they just kind of made up with patched together scriptures and then refuses sound teaching to the contrary.

    The only thing that can be done for them is to pray that the Holy Ghost will enlighten them.

    Working for Jesus,

    Tam,

    :cool: [​IMG]
     
  14. Ray Berrian

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    A good example of a heritic is Mr. Harold Camping --President of Family Radio. He at least used to be a Reformed Baptist, a denomination that teaches about four points of main theology that is anti-Biblical. He has taken ideas even beyond the five points of Calvinism, teaching that the church age is over and that no one can now get saved in Christian churches. He, of course, suggests that the denominational people send him their money so he can spread the truth around the world. He is a disgrace to the Christian community at large. He lives in California.

    I believe he has done great harm and continues to spread a false quasi-christian gospel.
     
  15. Johnv

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    The Greek word here is hairetikos, which means "one who chooses to separate". It doesn't simply means "someone with differing biblical views" as we often use it. We need to be careful to discern between a true heretic (someone who chooses purposefully anti-biblical doctrine) and someone who simply has a biblical interp[retation that is not the same as ours.
     
  16. Marcia

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    Heresy is denying essential, historical Christian doctrine, such as denying the deity of Christ, teaching that one must be baptized to be saved, denying the Trinity, saying that God the Father has a body (this is said by Word of Faith teacher Kenneth Copeland and some others), saying that Jesus did not atone for sins on the cross (like he had to go fight Satan, another WOF teaching), and others. So the Mormons cannot be Christians because of their denial of the Trinity, believing God has a body, salvation by grace plus works and many other beliefs. The Jehovah's Witnesses deny the deity of Christ (and teach other unbibical things).

    Who said "in all essentials unity, but in non-essentials charity?" We can disagree on secondary issues but must agree on the essentials.

    Of course, you have some Christians who want to make certain things essentials, like a literal 7 day creation. I believe in a literal 7 day creation but I do not think a Christian who does not believe that is a heretic. :cool:
     
  17. Ray Berrian

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    Marcia,

    Incidentally, my sisters name is Marcia.

    You said, '

    Heresy is denying essential, historical Christian doctrine, such as denying the
    deity of Christ, teaching that one must be baptized to be saved, denying the
    Trinity . . '

    I agree with you in your above statements.

    You continued to say, ' . . . saying that God the Father has a body (this is said by Word of Faith teacher Kenneth Copeland and some others), saying that Jesus did not atone for sins on the cross (like he had to go fight Satan, another WOF teaching), and others.'

    I do not believe you have any of your facts right as to the above statements. The times that I have watched Pastor Copeland he never denied that Jesus died on the Cross for sinner's sins.

    You said, 'So the Mormons cannot be Christians because of their denial of the Trinity, believing God has a body, salvation by grace plus works and many other beliefs.'

    I tend to agree with you in your reflections about Mormons. But what about Christians who believe in salvation by faith plus works? I believe they are saved but simply do not understand God's wonderful grace toward and in us.

    The Jehovah's Witnesses deny the deity of Christ (and teach other unbibical things).

    I agree with you about the JW's. At least they have one thing correct that some evangelicals do not accept as Biblical and that is that there will be a Millennial reign of Christ on the earth in the future. I do not think JW's are saved.
     
  18. Marcia

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    Hello, Ray,

    You may not have heard Copeland say it but he has. Joyce Meyer has also taught that Jesus went to hell to fight Satan. Other WOF teachers are Kenneth Hagin, Joel Osteen, Frederick Price, Jesse Duplantis, and Benny Hinn (with his own uniques spin. The best I can do to show this is give you some links which are below. I have also heard aberrant teaching from Copeland about how faith is a force and we can create like God with what we speak. This is another staple teaching of the WOF movement.

    Kenneth Copeland

    Kenneth and Gloria Copeland

    The Teachings of Kenneth Copeland
    Unorthodox quotes from Word Faith teachers

    Heresies of the Word Faith Movement
    The above includes quotes from Joyce Meyer and Copeland. Quote from Copeland:
    "Jesus had to go through that same spiritual death in order to pay the price. It wasn't the physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin. Because if it had of been any prophet of God that had died for the last couple of thousand of years before that could have paid that price. It wasn't physical death. Anybody could do that."
    Copeland also says that Jesus took on the sin nature of Satan.

    An overview of the WOF teachings
    http://www.watchman.org/profile/wordpro.htm

    An Examination of the Word Faith Movement

    A page with many links
    Word Faith Movement

    Joyce Meyers' Message on Being Born Again
     
  19. Ray Berrian

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    I don't think the Copeland types are any more heretical than Five Point Calvinsts who have about 2/3rds of their theology wrong and teach it as though it were from Jesus very lips?

    Even Catholics accept and reject parts of what the Magisterium has taught and even what the Pope says about their pet issues which they either retain or dismiss.

    Bottom line is that we will all have to stand before the Lord to be judged. [John 5:22]

    We are saved if we have received Christ. [John 1:12] In other areas probably everyone has some things wrong, except, me. Ha!

    When your church can draw as many evangelical Christians as Joyce Myers does, then I will rejoice with you. She knows how to preach to women's needs plus other people.
     
  20. Johnv

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    Agreed, this is not scriptural. Jesus did not go to Hell. He went to Hades, the place where dead souls rested.

    I don't believe Price and Olsteen are WOF.
     

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