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What is an hymn?

Discussion in 'Music Ministry' started by Aaron, Dec 6, 2007.

  1. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Scripture?
     
  2. Joseph M. Smith

    Joseph M. Smith New Member

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    Let's lighten up with this. The Dean of the School of Church Music at Southern Seminary, among whose crosses to bear was the task of offering an introduction to church music class to the theological students, told us that in a hymn, one sings, "The cow ate the green grass, and milk she did produce." But in a Gospel song, one sings, "The cow, the cow, the cow ate, the cow ate the green, green grass, oh yeah, yes she did, and milk, blessed milk, happy milk she did, oh yes she did produce."
     
  3. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    That's good enough for me to leave it there. As the poor widow said, "I mite or I mite not."
     
  4. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    Which of those 2 is "Just As I Am?"... O Lamb of God I come... I come
     
  5. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    Let's take Paul and Silas as an example...
    They sang the way Hebrews sang in those times....

    If you are wanting to stick solely to scripture, you would have to sing in that style...

    That means 4 part harmony would be out..
    Because, If I remember right from my freshman music literacy class in college.. back in 88... WOW... 4 part harmony is relatively new... like 1500s or so...

    That means, we would have to throw out all 4 part harmony songs in our hymnals...

    BTW, what type of music did they sing... what did they sound like in the first century... is there a link somewhere on the net that would give us a clue?

    We are never going to agree this side of Heaven, so the most we can do is learn from each other...

    Aaron, what type of music do you find worshipful?
     
  6. rbell

    rbell Active Member

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    won't it mean being arrested as well? :laugh:

    Right...polyphonic singing was considered "vulgar" by many puritans.
     
  7. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    Having grown up in church and listening to a lot of choirs and wannabee singers in Quartets that wanted to be like the Barbershop quartets of the 50s and 60s.. but lacked the talent....

    I would have to say, some are still vulgar!!!

    If you can't sing... make a joyful noise...

    But don't call it singing!!!
     
  8. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Besides the fact that two men can't sing 4 part harmony, you think the variety of instruments in the Temple orchestra, and the plurality of singers in the Levitical choir were all there to play and sing one note at a time in unison?

    That's a bit credulous, don't you think?

    Actually it's not new. The authors of your textbook didn't have the benefit of recent archaeological discoveries, and they made a host of unsubstantiated assumptions based on a Darwinistic view of history, much in the same way that modern scholarship assumed that writing had yet to be invented in the days of Moses.

    Just like it is now beyond dispute that writing was well-developed by the time of Moses, it is now known that the ancients had an advanced knowledge of music theory and harmonies. The oldest song in the world, a 3400-year-old Ugaritic hymn used the diatonic, do-re-mi scale and was written in harmony.

    Jesus, the son of Sirach (2nd Century B.C.) mentions that when Simon, the son of Onias was the High Priest, "The singers sang praises with their voice; with great variety of sounds was there made sweet melody."

    But one need not know all that, just take the Scriptures at face value and one will understand that music as an art and science was a well-developed discipline by the seventh generation from Adam, Jubal. He is the father of all those who handle the harp and the organ.

    A fallacious premise invalidates your conclusion.

    There is no new thing under the sun, Eccl. 1:9. Language and writing is not new. Music and harmony is not new. The thing that shall be is something that has already been. There is no intelligent reason to think that the music was much different than what we hear today. Certainly each region had it's own local color, but no matter how you sliced it, the music came out do-re-mi. There were many different styles in ancient times just as there are today, all with the same goal in view, to evoke a certain emotional response from the listener.

    I've already provided the clues from Scripture: the contexts of solemnity in which hymns were sung, and the contrast of hymns with drunken revelry.

    There is also the quote from Jesus the son of Sirach.

    As far as links are concerned, see the thread on Psalms.

    My concern here is, what style or styles of music is indicated by the word "hymn."
     
    #48 Aaron, Dec 7, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 7, 2007
  9. Trotter

    Trotter <img src =/6412.jpg>

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    So, we should only use dirges, and they are to be sung with long faces? Ain't happening.

    My faith is alive and moving. My God is alive and moving. I see His praise as the same thing.

    If you can only worship in solemnity, that's you. I praise and worship differently. there is nothing, nothing, NOTHING in scripture that says you must act like you are in a funeral to praise. The very word "praise" speaks of adoration that comes from the heart, and my heart is not always somber, but joyous and exuberent.

    I have yet to see how the tempo, tone, or style of contemporary Christian music is non-scriptureal, sinful, or non-honoring to God. The lyrics of some of it are not perfect, but neither are many hymns sung in traditional churches, so that argument is not valid. But what is the reasoning for condemning the music of it?
     
  10. rbell

    rbell Active Member

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    This statement is first of all, a mis-application of Eccl. 1:9; otherwise, you could prove through Scripture that airplanes don't exist.

    Secondly, that "do-re-mi" is the only music around...or the only acceptable music...can't be proved Scripturally, and it ignores all but Eurocentric musical history & theory.
     
  11. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    There is nothing a man does for pleasure that he didn't do since the Fall. Some of the tools may be different, but the behavior is the same. Men have always taken pleasure in music, and as men are wont to be, have always put tremendous effort toward the enjoyment of their pleasure, hence musical instruments at least by the seventh generation of Adam. The musical instruments of the ancients were no less sophisticated than those today. (I don't consider electronic instruments sophisticated. Discerning ears prefer a Stradivarius over a synthesized violin any day.)

    At any rate, the ancients new what "sweet" meant. They described the taste of honey as sweet, and they describe pleasant words as sweet. No one argues that they only thought honey was sweet, or that pleasant words only felt sweet to them because of their culture, so why is it that when the ancients describe certain melodies as sweet (Is. 23:16), we're automatically thinking that we wouldn't find them sweet to our ears as well?

    Who made that claim?
     
  12. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Scripture?
     
  13. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    If you were a perceptive fellow, you would see that I only asked for Scripture when someone postulated a moral judgment concerning what was and wasn't acceptable to God.

    But you're not very perceptive, so you asked me for Scripture when I'm merely citing historical facts. It's like asking me for Scripture when I say Ronald Reagan was the President for two terms.
     
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