What Is Arminianism?

How about a response here...

Arminians do not believe we can save ourselves. How often must this be said for you to get it through your head?

 

Realizing this has nothing to do with this forum. I must clearly disagree with that statement. Scott, please don't be swayed by those who want to remove God from public discourse in this nation by revising our history. A great site is www.wallbuilders.com.

Ken

[ September 17, 2002, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

It's not about agreement. What he wrote is just plain wrong. It's not correct information. I think I've shown why.

 

Scott:

You have obviously not carefully read or studied the Patristics. You have also not carefully read Calvin, who was heavily influenced by the Patristics.

St. Augustine, in his theological debates, always affirms that he is a defender of the fudatissima fides , expecting all catholics to side with him in his disputation with the Pelagians. He uses passages from the Patristics who preceded him to confirm his own views, particularly Hilary of Poitiers, Cyprian, Gregory Nazianzen, and Ambrose.

Elsewhere:

THE EPISTLE OF BARNABAS - "Before we believed in God, the habitation of our heart was corrupt and weak, as being indeed like a temple made with hands. For it was full of idolatry, and was a habitation of demons," but that through God using His "word of faith" and "calling of promise" He gave repentance althought it was to those who never "desired to hear the them."

THE FIRST EPISTLE OF CLEMENT TO THE CORINTHIANS - mentions the "elect" frequently. Clement also seeks to comfort the Corinthians by telling them that their adversity serves a purpose, that "the number of His elect might be saved." He later declares, "Let us therefore approach Him in holiness of soul, lifting up pure and undefiled hands unto Him, with love towards our gentle and compassionate Father who made us an elect portion unto Himself." Clement closes, "Finally may the All-seeing God and Master of spirits and Lord of all flesh, who chose the Lord Jesus Christ, and us through Him for a peculiar people, grant unto every soul that is called after His excellent and holy Name faith, fear, peace, patience, longsuffering, temperance, chastity and soberness, that they may be well-pleasing unto His Name thorugh our High-priest and Guardian Jesus Christ, through whom unto Him be glory and majesty, might and honour, both now and for ever and ever. Amen."

EPISTLE TO THE EPHESIANS, Ignatius - "To the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, deservedly most happy, being blessed of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united and elected through the true passion by the will of God the Father, and of our Lord Jesus Christ our Savior." Later he adds that, "Jesus Christ will deliver you, who has founded you upon the rock, as being chosen stones, well fitted for the divine edifice of the Father, and who are raised up on high by Christ, who was crucified for you..."

DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO, Justin Martyr - plays heavily on the theme of election. Justin argues that Christians are, in fact, the holy people promised to Abraham because "God has chosen even us, and He has become manifest to those who asked not after Him." He further expounds, "God has from of old dispersed all men according to their kindreds and tongues; and out of all kindreds has taken to Himself your kindred, a useless, disobedient, and faithless generation; and has shown that those who were selected out of every nation have obeyed His will through Christ,-whom He calls also Jacob, and names Israel."

Clement of Alexandria - "Through faith the elect of God are saved. The generation of those who seek God is the elect nation...the congregation of the elect, which I call the Church.... You are those who are chosen from among men and as those who are predestined from among men, and in His own time called, faithful, and elect, those who before the foundation of the world are known intimately by God unto faith; that is, are appointed by Him to faith..."

AGAINST HERESIES, Irenaeus - "When the number [fixed upon] is completed, [that number] which He had predetermined in His own counsel,all those who have been enrolled for life [eternal] shall rise again...so that the number of mankind, corresponding to the fore-ordination of God, being completed, may fully realize the scheme formed by the Father."

Rev. G

[ September 19, 2002, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: Rev. G ]

 

Any doctrine that does not give God all the glory for eternal salvation is not giving glory to whom glory is due. All glory is due unto God, not man. I have heard multitudes boast about their hearing, their believing, their choice, their acceptance, their..., their..., their...until I am completely sick of it.

"But OF HIM are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory IN THE LORD." (1 Cor. 1:30, 31)

Arminians think it is all of them that they are in Christ Jesus. They sing "How Great Thou Art" without stopping to think about the meaning of what they are singing.

"That on the cross
My burden gladly lifted
He bled and died
To take away my sin"

He didn't really do that for anybody according to your theology. He done it, but it doesn't mean anything till it be joined with out feeble will.

And "It is Well with my Soul"...

"My sin...is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more!"

"Of course you do," says Scott. You have to join your will with it. How disgusting...

[ September 19, 2002, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]

 

Could you provide references to the works, please?

 

Read the entire passage here: http://reluctant-messenger.com/barnabus13.htm
Note in verse 21 that the renewal comes AFTER trusting in the Lord. Very different from what the Calvinists say. Also read verse 23 carefully. It doesn't say exactly what you say it says.

...but note how he DEFINES the elect both in this letter and in the rest of his writings. (Just read how he uses the OT definition for elect!)

And I would maintain that he defines elect as the Church, which can be seen later in the letter, as he says that the number of the elect can be added to!

Where is your reference? This isn't from the first letter to the Corinthians that I can see. Again, how does he DEFINE the elect? Those who believe or those who God specifically chooses. Look at how he uses Jacob and Esau in the letter and compare it with how Calvinists look at them.

An Arminian would easily agree with this.

Again, we get to HOW they are elect. Is it a choosing from the very beginning, as Calvinist say, or is it a term used for the Church as Arminius explained?

Again, the idea of chosen stones doesn't say anything about a unilateral choosing.

So how do we define elect again? According to Juston Martyr himself, First Apology 43-45, you will see specifically how he believes election takes place. God only foresees the free choices of individuals and bases his election on their choices. In this respect, God's decisions are in some sense dependent on human choices. Consequently, God is "responsive" for Justin.

Which fits perfectly with the Arminian interpretation of Romans 9-11.

[quote[Clement of Alexandria - "Through faith the elect of God are saved. The generation of those who seek God is the elect nation...the congregation of the elect, which I call the Church.... You are those who are chosen from among men and as those who are predestined from among men, and in His own time called, faithful, and elect, those who before the foundation of the world are known intimately by God unto faith; that is, are appointed by Him to faith..."[/quote]

Clement also writes in Clement of Alexandria, "Rich Man," Chapters 1 and 2 that only individuals who obtain the truth and "distinguishes himself in good works" shall gain eternal life. This is neither here nor there but is an interesting aside.

It is very interesting to note that Clement was a precursor to Augustine. While I grant you that, I would encourage you to read up on how he came to his philosophy and theology. He regarded the science and philosophy of the Greeks as being, like the Torah of the Hebrews, a preparation for the Gospel. They took the same precident, which is evident in the totality of his writings. For much more, you can read Salvatore R.C. Lilla., Clement of Alexandria, A Study in Christian Platonism and Gnosticism. (Oxford: OUP, 1971), 31-41.

If you want Clement, you can have him.

Irenaeus 4.37.1-2 - entitled "Men are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It is Not True, Therefore, that Some are by Nature Good, and Others Bad." Read it here http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-62.htm#P8811_2507018

Where does your link come from?

It's clear that a closer reading of your texts dilutes the power of the statements you try to make. I would encourage reading the other side to see, as well as examining what ol' Clement of Alexandria was all about. In his own writings he places the word of Greek philosophy at the exact same level as that of the Torah. I cannot see the two as both being inspired by God. And if Clement's assumptions are foundationally incorrect, why should we follow what he writes? What do you think?

 

And again I say, who are you to say woh is giving God glory and who is not. I will say again to the point of nausea that Arminians do indeed give God all the glory. You just choose not to accept that since it doesn't follow YOUR strict rules for what counts and what doesn't count.

Just because you're sick of it means nothing. I don't think you've ever seen Arminians on this board at least state, "I'm so glad I listened to the voice of God. Praise me!" Enlighten me with quotes to prove your point.

And I would posit that Arminians who follow the doctrine of Arminius do that. Ovre and over again in Arminius' work, you see him stating that all glory is given to God.

That's an ignorant statement and devoid of any rationality.

But if I am saved then I can sing it with assurance.

The question is this: Why does it disgust you? Even in Calvinism, eventually man's will must be joined with God's will. I think your problem isn't that - your problem is that Arminians don't buy into the idea that God doesn't give all people a choice.

 

I think it is completely ludicrous for anyone to think that, those who God chose as His elect people, could turn away from Him and refuse His free gift of grace. He gave us a brain to make choices while here on earth, but it seems certain people want to believe that God gives us these same choices for our salvation. For starters, all of this would give man power over God, and if anyone here believes that, I will be praying for you. Imagine this scenario, I believe in God, so I get into Heaven. Upon my entering Heaven, I decide that I don't like it and want to turn away from God. This would be my choice in somebody's view, right? That would mean that my entering Heaven was not right, so therefore, we must conclude that God made a bad choice in letting me in!!! Not only that, but since I changed my mind, I am now a non-elect sinner, so I have just made Heaven a place where you can sin!!! Anyway, to sum everything up, we can read the scriptures.
John 6:37-39
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it again at the last day."
This demonstrates that ALL of the elect, given to Christ by the Father before the foundation of the world, will come to Him. I don't know how anyone could go through life worrying about whether or not they are saved eternally. Thankfully, God has given me grace to see, and this gives me hope and peace. I know that my salvation, timely and eternally, are in more capable hands than mine. In Christian Love, Bro. James Reed

 

Welcome, Brother Reed.

Ken

 

If a person is really saved by Christ he or she must activate his or her will. With out this entity there is no believing which leads to salvation. [John 3:16; 6:35; 6:51; 8:12; 11:25]

 

Tell you what, Brother Ray, the next time you see a physically dead person in a casket activate his will to do something, let me know. When you can prove that to me, then I will cease to be a Calvinist and will then believe that a dead person in a spiritual casket can activate his will to do something to be saved.

Man, this is hard work, refuting bad theology.

Ken

[ September 20, 2002, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

Brother Ken Hamilton,

We tire of Calvinists offering up only the 'party line.'

Let's get down to discounting my post dated September 20 at 9:00 p.m. Exegete any or all of the verses set before you. You will never learn anything by mere denials or ignoring what other people have to say.

Anxiously awaiting . . .

Respectfully,

Ray Berrian, Th.D.

 

Brother Ray,

I see that you offer up the typical non-Calvinist response when coming up against an analogy(a parable if you will ) to prove a Biblical point that cannot be refuted.

I await your response and I await your sighting of a physically dead person activating his will to do something.

Ken

 

Ken Hamilton,

We who think more in the direction of Arminianism have a very strong view of the activity of the Holy Spirit in touching the lives of sinners. He convicts and convinces people of their sinful condition and of their need of Christ who gives as a free gift everlasting life. If His conviction is ineffectual then you are correct. But, I recall the Bible saying in John 16:8 that ' . . . when He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.'

Think about it. The Lord via the Holy Spirit is potent enough to reprove and convince the world of their sins, and of His righteousness, and of impending judgment. Without question He has convinced 'the world of their sins' even before regeneration. Your dead corpse analogy has been touched, externally, by God the Spirit enough that a sinner knows that he has sins that he is responsible for in this life, because a holy God has also convinced him that there will be a final judgment.

Now if Almighty God had used this analogy of a dead corpse to liken a similarity to a dead sinner I would sit up and take notice. But, coming from a human being who is trying to mend
his own theological fence, I find it interesting.

Again, I am anxiously awaiting your response to my verses and ideas in Sept. 20-- 9:00 o'clock post.

 

Brother Ray,

Remember the story of Jesus raising Lazarus in the gospel according to John? When Jesus told Lazarus to come forth, could Lazarus have resisted the life-giving command of Jesus because his "free will had been activated"? To say yes would be absurd. When Jesus gives the command to come forth, the dead always arise.

A furtherance of the dead corpse analogy that Arminians cannot refute.

Ken

 

In which thread? Why don't you just repeat them if you are so anxious to read my response?

Ken

 

Ken Hamilton,

Can you give me a book, chapter and verse explaining the analogy of the dead corpse to that of a lost sinner?

My guess is that this is a new, super-imposed Calvinistic parable.

We don't accept extra-Biblical ideas as being valid and worthy of our faith.