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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by jbh28, May 18, 2012.
In very simple term please.
Basically, that man has been allowed by God to have a measure of free will, but our free will decisions will always be conditioned/restricted by the fcat that we are sinners! BOUND UP IN OUR SIN NATURES...
Free to chose, but some things we will not ever chose!
You are a form of compatibilist in that you insist that choices are determined by our desires...some links that might be helpful.....
The immediate definition is found At the top:
Compatibilism offers a solution to the free will problem. This philosophical problem concerns a disputed incompatibility between free will and determinism. Compatibilism is the thesis that free will is compatible with determinism. Because free will is typically taken to be a necessary condition of moral responsibility, compatibilism is sometimes expressed in terms of a compatibility between moral responsibility and determinism.
"Compatibilism" is a term used to describe, defend and uphold a specific “philosophical system of soteriology” which attempts to argue that both: determinism and free will/creaturely volition can be true, or compatible.
Why some/many would be drawn to this concept is telling, and even reasonably admirable in that it is an attempt to avoid theological fatalism (logically assigning evil to God) but the argument fails even on simple logical principles and more and more “scholars” today are abandoning Compatibilism altogether because of the recognition of these facts.
This often leads to the consequences of one's system abandoning the volition of man and necessarily changes their “philosophical system of soteriology” to a view of what is principally defined as “hyper-determinism” to which “theological fatalism” is logically unavoidable an many levels.
What is the opposite viewpoint as regarding this issue?
The BB doesn't allow answers less than 10 letters, but the shortest answer is:
That determinism and man's volition are not Compatible, of course.
Eventually this is all going to boil down into:
Calvinistic thinking = anti- Compatibilism
Arminianistic thinking = pro- Compatibilism
You have them backwards aged....
I’m afraid you’re somewhat confused in your effort to assign Compatibilism to Arminians:
Compatibilism = a belief that both determinism and man's volition are true.
Non-Compatibilism = a belief of either determinism or man’s volition is true.
I suppose the belief in Compatibilism could be held by a Calvinist or an Arminian, but I rarely see an Arminian resorting to the fallacies of Compatibilism to support their soteriological view as it is based on the necessary truth of God’s creatures having volition. The necessity to uphold a view of determinism through Compatibilism to support their philosophical system strictly belongs the Calvinist and therefore is much more common of them and typically isn’t even in the picture for an Arminian as the need to avoid theological fatalism due to assigning moral responsibility of evil to God is a non-issue.
What is Compatibilism?
In very simple term please.
Just to add one point to the others. Compatibilists attempt to maintain a since of human freedom by defining it as, "Acting in accordance with ones desires." (i.e. A person is free if he is doing what he wants)
But this just backs the problem up a step because they believe the desires and wants of man is determined by God, so I'm not sure why they bother.
Precisely....It still doesn't solve the problem:thumbsup:
But libertarian free will doesn't solve the problem of intention, purpose, or reason in choices. The actual hinge for choices happens in a vacuum.
Yes, compatibilism accepts a form of "free will," but does not pretend to accept a libertarian version. Compatibilism defines "free will" as the ability to do what one's greatest desire in any situation without coercion.
Libertarian free will necessarily denies real purpose in any choice because the agent could always do otherwise. Choices are essentially made in a vacuum. To be consistent, libertarian free will requires the Open View of God.
Who, if not the choosing agent, determines that greatest desire?
The ability to do otherwise doesn't deny there is a purpose in what is done, it only acknowledges the freedom of the will to follow another purpose if it so chooses.
Do desires make determinations, or do people? What about God? Does he make determinations or do His desires make determinations?
Straw-man. Our appeal to mystery as to how a free moral agent makes a free moral choice doesn't necessitate a vacuum, otherwise there wouldn't be the need for an appeal to mystery. Your overwhelming desire to supply an answer to the deterministic presumption imposes upon our view.
Not at all. It requires a bigger view of God than the idea that His sovereignty demands complete and total determination of every thing that happens, but it doesn't require a abandonment of the biblical teaching of omniscience.
When one thinks of omniscience as a finite guy with a crystal ball looking down the corridors of time to see what will certainly happen and then making decisions based on what he foresees, then YES, you are right, you would have to take away the guys crystal ball (i.e. deny foresight), but I don't believe God's knowledge of all things is limited to a finite linear timeline bound by cause and effect. He is the great I AM. He Knows all things because he is present as all things happen, not because he determined all things to happen. To insist that the only way for God to KNOW what will happen is for him to DETERMINE it to happen is a very finite, small and limited way of thinking about God, IMO.
<---- What He said :applause:
No, its that God allowed Adam to make his choice, he sinned against God, and ALL are found by God to be in Adam, so our deires and wants based upon our fallen sinful states, NOT "determined" by God!
Yes...precisely the point...who determined that it would be "in Adam" that all would die? Could God have given each man the same choice Adam had? God did in fact determine that the sin of Adam would be passed down to all men. Therefore: it is in fact the case that (at least in this respect) God determined what our wants and desires would be....try again.