What is death? What is Life?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Biblicist, Oct 15, 2014.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Eph. 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

    Eph. 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

    Isa. 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

    1 Tim. 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

    Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    My understanding of "death" is that it is SEPARATION:

    1. Spiritual death is SEPARATION from God who is life - "alienated from the life of God"

    2. Physical death is SEPARATION of the material from the immaterial nature of man.

    3. Second Death is SEPARATION of the whole man from God in Gehenna

    GOD IS LIFE and to be separated from God is to be separated from life. The opposite of "separation" is what? The opposite of being alienated from the life of God is what? The opposite of death is what?

    ANSWER: "Union"

    1. Spiritual death is reversed by Spiritual "union" as it is the spirit of man that is born, quickened, regenerated of the Spirit.

    2. Physical death is reversed by physical "union" with the spirit of man.

    Hence, new birth, quickening, regeneration in part is spiritual union between the spirit of man and the Holy Spirit.

    Spiritual UNION is impossible without being UNITED as one as there is no "union" if the Holy Spirit is not united with the spirit of man - a state without union is called "separation."

    Hence, all human beings before the cross and after the cross who are spiritually SEPARATED from God are spiritually dead. All human beings before and after the cross who are in spiritual UNION with the Spirit of God are ONE and UNITED with God in Spirit and that is LIFE and that is the essence of indwelling by the Spirit as there can be no spiritual union if there is no indwelling by the Spirit of God in the human spirit - union is being united as one.

    Therefore, the baptism in the Spirit, which is a dated ("not many days hence") and post-cross located event ("wait.....Jerusalem") cannot possibly have anything to do with spiritual union with God through Christ as that would condemn all pre-Pentecostal saints to hell as spiritually dead persons. There is no salvation OUTSIDE of Christ. There is no spiritual LIFE or salvation outside of spiritual union with God. Therefore, the so-called mystical body of Christ cannot possibly be or obtain the state of spiritual union between believers and Christ. Regeneration obtains the spiritual union between believers and Christ and that preceded Pentecost (Jn. 3:3-13). The baptism in the Spirit is RESTRICTED TIME LOCATED forbidding its existence prior to Pentecost. It is too late for the non-dispensations universal invisible church union and completing damning to all Old Testament saints in regard to the dispensational universal invisble church union. Hence, the so-called universal invisible church theories are false doctrine which preach another gospel, another way of salvation which deny spiritual life and salvation to anyone prior to Pentecost.
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Oct 15, 2014
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  2. percho

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    When Adam sinned and brought the death to man, Adam at that very moment was dead to God, yet he still lived in the flesh. God cut Adam off from the tree of life. Yet Adam still lived in the flesh.

    And all the days that Adam lived (yet dead to God) were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. Gen. 5:5 While being alive, yet dead to God, he produced sons and daughters. After he died in the flesh, laving already been dead to God, I would say he was surely dead and or dying he did die.

    Now had not God made a promise before he made the world of the hope of eternal life and had not God determined before the foundation of the world that his Son would be born of one, yet created, subject to the death, when supposedly there was no death, to receive the promise of God. Hope.

    Let's say that last paragraph did not take place. Where would Adam be today? Burning in Hell? Whatever Hell would be in that case. What has one called Satan got to do with all this? What was the purpose of Adam relative to Satan? Who came first Adam or Satan. Did Satan have any kind of power, relative to Adam?

    Why are we saved by hope?

    For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Romans 8:24,25 and renewing of Spirit Holy of which, he poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Tim 1:10

    Abolished vp Aor Act Gen Sg m. Done in the past to be fulfilled in the future, Right?

    When will it be totally fulfilled?
     
  3. The Biblicist

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    The fall of man did not take God by surprise. Certainly He had an eternal purpose to redeem a people to Himself through His Son. Death is called the "last enemy" (1 Cor. 15:25) and death is due to sin. However, Christ's death is not due to His own sin but due to our sins and suffered as a representative man.

    Read what the Scripture says. It seems that you are attempting to rewrite scripture on a "what if" theory.

    Look at the context! It is directly referriing to THE BODY and its resurrection from the grave. We have not yet received the SALVATION OF OUR BODIES and that is the future "hope" of salvation yet to come. We have not yet entered the glorified state of a new heaven and earth. We have not yet been rewarded in our bodies. However, we have received right now in possess eternal life in our spirit and our spirit shall never die (Jn. 11:26; Jn. 5:24).
     
  4. percho

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    Was the little baby boy who was Holy, who they named Jesus, born of the virgin Mary and had been conceived in her, whatever that means, by the Spirit, subject to death and corruption? Could the person who had been born die and his body be subject to corruption?

    Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Romans 6:9
    And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Acts 13:34

    Was this same Jesus raised from the dead, no more subject to death? Was this same Jesus raised from the dead in a body no more to return to corruption?

    Was no more subject to death and no more subject to corruption directly related to being raised from the dead?

    Had the Father of him, Spirit the God, Holy raised him from the dead, quickening him and giving him to have life within himself just as he, his Father has life in himself?

    For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; From John 5:21,26

    And when I saw him, I did fall at his feet as dead, and he placed his right hand upon me, saying to me, 'Be not afraid; I am the First and the Last, and he who is living, and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages. Amen! and I have the keys of the hades and of the death. Rev 1:17,18 YLT

    Is that speaking of a person or the bodily presence of person, that was living, died and living again unto the ages?

    Was the resurrection necessary to remove, "the person," from death, in order for that person to have life again, in a resurrected, incorruptible house?
     
  5. The Biblicist

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    No, I don't believe he could be. That is why he said no man taketh my life from me, as he had the power to lay it down and take it back up. No other human being could make that claim. He could suffer death only by submitting himself to it willingly for a just cause. The only just cause would be a substitute for sinners. In that LEGAL position he could be JUSTLY condemned to death by the Father. When he went to the cross, he "gave up" his spirit, as even on the cross he said that he could deliver himself from it.

    So death was not a NATURAL necessity but only a LEGAL necessity due to the role of substitution FOR OUR sins. For example, there is no record of him ever being sick or diseased or committing any sin.
     
  6. The Biblicist

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    My OP has been sidetracked to a completely different subject. Now let us come back to the point of my OP, which is, that the doctrine of the baptism in the Spirit by non-charistmatics is that this is obtaining spiritual union between the believer and Christ in regard to the mystical body of Christ - the universal invisible church theory. That is false! Spiritual union with the Spirit of Christ is obtained by regeneration. The baptism in the Spirit is TIME located and GEOGRAPHICALLY located (Acts 1:4-5) but regeneration is neither TIME or GEOGRAPHICALLY located but has been the necessary work of God since the fall. Sin has SPIRIUALLY SEPARATED man from God which is SPIRITUAL DEATH, whereas, regeneration/new birth/quickening has brought fallen man back into SPIRITUAL UNION with God - WHO IS LIFE. So the protestant concept of the baptism in the Spirit is another gospel, another way of salvation and a false doctrine.
     
  7. The Biblicist

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    The baptism in the Spirit is one part (public accrediting action by God) of a visible covenant administration centered around one kind of "house of God" which has a qualified PUBLIC ministry (1 Tim. 3:1-13) and qualified PUBLIC ordinances as a qualified PUBLIC "house of worship" (1 Tim. 3:15) with a qualified PUBLIC faith and message (1 Tim. 3;16-4:1) with a qualified PUBLIC commission (Mt. 28:19-20; Acts 1:8).

    The administrative "house of God" operates within the "kingdom of God" or the realm of the professing people of God as the authorized public house of worship. The commission given this institutional house of God is inclusive of "the world" in its scope. However, that does not mean that individual Christians cannot or should not give witness to the gospel to all the world. It only means that the public visible authorized house of worship is the only public institution given that mission. Therefore, this dispensation has a qualified and authorized public house of worship, with a public qualified ministry with qualified ordinances and a qualified public mission even as the Old Covenant dispensation did (Heb. 9:1). The baptism in the Spirit is an INSTITUTIONAL public accreditation limited to a specific time and specific geographical location (acts 1:4-5). It's only other occurrence was in keeping with its public accrediting design in verifying that gentile believers are approved for membership in that public house of worship on EQUAL basis with Jewish believers (Acts 10-11:1-16), thus removing the "middle wall of division" that divided Gentile believers from Jewish believers in the previous PUBLIC INSTITUTIONAL house of worship.
     
  8. The Biblicist

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    The baptism in the Spirit always has to do with a qualified public house of worship where qualified public ministers administer qualified public ordinances. The qualified public "house" of worship always is in connection with a wider dispenstation that contains a commission. This is the import of Hebrews 9:1 that says,

    Heb. 9:1¶ Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

    The second covenant "also" has ordinances of divine service within a "sanctuary" found in this world, thus a "worldly sancturary."

    The baptism in the Spirit is the public recognition by God that the New covenant "house of God" has been built according to a divine pattern with qualified ordinances and a qualified ministry.

    With this approved house of God also comes a greater dispensational commission of the Holy Spirit with accompanying confirming signs and wonders.

    The baptism in the Spirit has nothing to do with INDIVIDUAL salvation or sanctification directly, but is an INSTITUTIONAL baptism that confirms every aspect of the New Covenant administration is established after a divine qualified pattern. The New Testament Scriptures provide a qualified pattern for building churches. The New Testament Scriptures provide a qualified pattern for its ordinances. The New Testament Scriptures provide a qualified pattern for its ministry qualifications. The New Testament Scriptures provide a qualified pattern for its Great Commission. The entirety of this New Testament qualified pattern is called "the faith once delivered."
     
  9. Yeshua1

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    There is a Church/Body of Christ though, which are all of the redeemed throughout history, correct?
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    Absolutely not! You fail to recognize the family and kingdom of God and confuse them with the church of God. The church of God is not universal either in the Catholic dogma or the Protestant dogma. Neither is it invisible.

    The church of God is spoken of in two senses only - (1) The institutional sense - the definite singular and (2) the concrete sense - the definite singular and definite plural.

    Here is the crux of your universal invisible church theory. How do you become part of it?

    1. YOu can't say by salvation unless you deny salvation before Pentecost, and then you have "another gospel" and another way of salvation in direct contradiction to the scriptures.

    2. You can't say by the baptism in the Spirit as the baptism in the Spirit has NOTHING to do with obtaining spiritual union - that is the sole object of regeneration. The baptism in the spirit is restricted in time ("not many days hence" and geographical application ("wait...Jersualem) and yet there were hundreds of believers that were not in Jerusalem and did not wait in Jerusalem. Indeed, Paul refers to over 500 brethren that witnessed his pre-asenscion resurrected body but only 120 were in Jerusalem, in the room, on the day of Pentecost.

    3. Augustine and Luther invented the universal church from the parable of the tares in Matthew 13. That is a matter of public record. They wrongly interpeted the "field" to be a universal church when Jesus says it is "the world" and the "seed" are the "kingdom" not the church. The Ante-nicene and Nicene records do no have anyone believing in any other kind of church than a local visible congregational body of baptized believers before Constantine. When Constantine invented the universal church he was charged immediately by his opponents as inventing another kind of church.


    So when you respond, you tell me how you gained entrance into a universal invisible church without perverting regeneration and making regeneration the baptism in the Spirit? Then explain how a time and greographically limited baptism in the Spirit does not contradict and pervert regeneration prior to the day of Pentecost?
     
    #10 The Biblicist, Oct 20, 2014
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  11. Yeshua1

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    I would see the entry into the Body of Christ happens by new birth, and that all who were saved by death of jesus since Him forward are in the church, while those saved by Him under the Old covenant were not in the Church, but were aprt of His Kingdom, and they will be resurrected to rule here on earth with Him in his millinium reign!
     
  12. The Biblicist

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    Those are nice words but totally irrational. You are saying "new birth" prior to Pentecost means one thing and "new birth" after Pentecost means something entirely different.

    So what is the actual difference since regeneration both before and after obtains spiritual union with God through Christ????
     
    #12 The Biblicist, Oct 20, 2014
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  13. Yeshua1

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    Do not see the OT believers as possessing the Holy Spirit on a permamnent basis as we do now under the new Covenant...
     
  14. percho

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    The God of Jews only, He, and not also of nations? yes, also of nations; since one God, who shall declare righteous the circumcision (IMHO the OT saints) by faith, and the uncircumcision (IMHO NT saints) through the faith.
    Romans 3:29,30

    By the faith, to come.
    Through the faith that did come.

    The faith the Galatians heard about whereby they did receive the Spirit.
    Gal 3:2 this only do I wish to learn from you -- by works of law the Spirit did ye receive, or, (out of) hearing of faith?
    Gal 3:23-25 And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that (out) of faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we, for ye are all sons of God through the faith in Christ Jesus, (Both OT and NT saints being the faith of God has come.)

    Consider: Lo, a presumptuous one! Not upright is his soul within him, And the righteous (One) by his stedfastness (Faith) liveth. Hab 2:4 Not by what the presumptuous one's believes, his self righteousness. I believe His in bold is God. Compare to Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
    Made a righteous one, by his blood and shall live by his life. As children of God through the faith that is in Christ.

    Christ was dead.
    Christ was given life again.

    What is death, what is life?
     
  15. The Biblicist

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    You did not answer my questions. Regeneration obtains spiritual union before and after Pentecost. Look at the OP and try to refute what I said. Where there is spiritual union there is indwelling as there can be no "union" unless the Spirit of God is UNITED with your spirit - that is Indwelling - as union is impossible apart from indwelling.

    I have already dealt with every text in the New Testament that you think refers to future indwelling after Pentecost. No one has been able to overturn the interpretation I have provided.

    The baptism in the Spirit is an INSTITUTIONAL immersion and the church is an INSTITUTIONAL qualified public house of worship, with public qualified ministers who administer public qualified ordinances - that is the context of 1 Tim. 3:15.
     
  16. The Biblicist

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    It is hard to make any sense of what you are saying! You are confusing physical with spiritual death. The immaterial Christ was SEPARATED from the Material Christ and then reunited at resurrection. However, Christ was never "born of God" as in regeneration simply because he never was born spiritually dead and needed to be reborn spiritually.
     
  17. percho

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    I am saying death and life are opposites. It is man who as divided death and life into physical and spiritual. The word of God speaks of death, and life.

    You who were dead in trespass and sins means the exact same thing as,
    dying thou dost die, as God told Adam. The moment Eve ate and gave unto her husband and he did eat, they became dead in trespass and sin, singular, and the death extended to all that would come after them, including the Christ.

    It was appointed into man once, to die.

    That appointment was made when God, before the foundation of the world, before Adam was created in the image of God, determined that, the Christ, the Son of the living God, as of a lamb would shed his blood, give his life, for redemption from the death.

    The Life and the death, even there opposites.

    Life is the grace of God. The Son of God, who was without sin, was dead, paid the wages, for the singular sin of Adam.

    We had a discussion in another thread where I asked concerning Jesus obtaining by inheritance a name more excellent than the angels.

    Jesus the sinless Son of God was dead. Even though he was the Son of the Living God, he learned obedience by the things which he suffered; Heb. 5:8 This was when he Jesus the Son of God; Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Death comes to the person, Adam, in the flesh, just as it came to Jesus being paid the wages of sin, even though he was sinless. 1 Peter 3:18 Jesus, the sinless one, learned obedience, Phil. 2:8 he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    This is the Son of the Living God that is being spoken of. Now what took place because of this learning and becoming obedient to the extent that he Jesus, resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

    Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

    Wherefore, because of his learned obedience Jesus by resurrection, obtained, inherited a name more excellent than the angels. Thou art my Son, this day, have I begotten (born) thee, you Jesus of Nazareth.

    The heir of God, inherited, a name more excellent than the angels and he also inherited the promised hope of God, Life eternal.

    On the morrow after the Sabbath. After the resurrection to Life.
    Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. John 20:16,17

    Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matt 28:16-18

    When did Jesus inherit all things?

    Did it begin with the grace of life, the opposite of death, of which we having been given the Holy Spirit, have become the heirs of the same promised hope, eternal life. Titus 3:7 and 1 Peter 3:7
     
    #17 percho, Oct 21, 2014
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  18. The Biblicist

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    No one is disputing they are opposites. What is being disputed is the NATURE of these opposites. It is obvious to any rational thinking person that those who were said to be "dead" in Ephesians 2:1 were not PHYSICALLY dead but very much PHYSICALLY alive with PHYSICAL LIFE which is the opposite of PHYSICAL death but is not the same NATURE as SPIRITUAL DEATH. Spiritual death is the only rational alternative to describe the NATURE of their death since they were not PHYSICALLY DEAD! Just think about it? They "were" dead while still possessing PHYSICAL LIFE. Note what reversed that death is QUICKENING and yet they were not physically dead. Hence, QUICKENING is SPIRITUAL life as John 3:6 demands, as it is the human "spirit' that is born again, quickened, made alive. Again, their body was not quickened as their body was not dead. It is their immaterial spirit that was "dead" SEPARATED FROM BY GOD BY SINS described in the next two verses (Eph. 2:2-3). Just read it, and use some common sense.
     
    #18 The Biblicist, Oct 21, 2014
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  19. percho

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    I do not believe John 3:6 is about the spirit of a man being born of the Spirit.

    That which is born of the flesh is flesh; That is all of us. That is you, whether you consider yourself born again or not. You still is flesh, and I might add and blood.

    Do you believe you can enter the kingdom of God as flesh with the life thereof in the blood?

    It is the man that must be born from above.

    Why is it that it is the body that is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

    Why is it that: whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: -----Yet can we, or do we want to be found naked, I assume in his presence and or at his coming?

    To be in his presence, to enter the kingdom of God with him, to inherit the kingdom of God must the man be clothed with his house from heaven?

    Are the dead in Christ dead until they receive there house from heaven at the coming of the Lord? For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Is that when the body of which is the temple of the Holy Spirit is quickened?
    Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
    Is that when also the dead, people who have died in Christ, are quickened, just as Christ was quickened? 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    The man body, soul, and spirit must be born anew of Spirit the God. Adam, the man of the creation of vanity of Rom 8:20 must be born again as a son of God.
     
  20. The Biblicist

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    You are just admitting you do not believe God's Word. You quote only half of the verse that suits you (Jn. 3:6a) and simply ignore the other half (Jn. 3:6b) which explicitly and clearly states exactly what you refuse to accept. Can't help you!
     

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