Featured What is Death?

Amazing, you will not even listen to famous Calvinist theologians!

You really believe you are smarter than everyone don't you? Yet, you fail to see how it would be unjust for a man to die for a sin he never committed?

There is no hope for you, you are an unthinking fanatic.

 

I must confess to Winman and Biblicist, I thought I understood this issue of original sin, our sin, before and after the law, the Tree of Life, etc pretty good. I have been following your thread and am now very confused. Both of your posts seem reasonable. Help!!!

 

Original Sin is actually quite complex, and there are many various theories. I have shown some quotes from theologians (Calvinists) who have great difficulty with each of the three predominate theories.

But basically put, Original Sin teaches that you are conceived dead in sin. You are guilty of Adam's sin the moment you are conceived, just as if you had eaten the forbidden fruit yourself. Thus, if you die, you would go straight to hell for eternity for the sin you committed "in Adam". This is why the Catholics and others baptize babies, to wash away this "original" sin you carry.

This is just one theory, other theories say you simply inherited Adam's corruption or "sin nature" and MUST sin. It is all you can do by your very nature. Again, this was imposed on you not because of any personal choice, but because of Adam.


Original Sin was NEVER held by the Jews, and is not to this day. The Eastern Orthodox Church rejects OS. OS is primarily an invention of Augustine, who developed this theory almost exclusively from Romans 5:12 alone. The problem was, Augustine did not know Greek and used a flawed Latin text that said "in WHOM all sinned" which he thought referred to Adam. Almost all scholars admit this Latin text was flawed and should correctly say "because all have sinned" or "for that all have sinned" as the KJB says. This says death passed on all men because they PERSONALLY sinned.

There is much more to it, it takes much study to fully understand all the various theories.

Biblicist thinks that Adam represented all men, and thus when he sinned, we sinned "in him". There is no support for this in scripture. God clearly says in Ezekiel 18 that each man bears his own sin, the son does not bear the iniquity of his father, neither does the father bear the iniquity of his son, but each man dies (spiritually) for his own personal sin. This is scripture that directly addresses the subject of whether one man can bear another's sin.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Scripture simply presents Adam as the man who introduced disobedience and sin into the world, while Jesus introduced obedience and righteousness into the world.

Men (and babies) do physically die as a consequence of Adam's sin. When Adam and Eve sinned, God barred them from the tree of life. If they (and us) would have eaten of this tree they would live PHYSICALLY forever.

Physically dying is not a sign of moral corruption, animals die, and they cannot sin.

It is actually a blessing that we physically die, as it is our greatest incentive to turn from sin and trust Jesus, thus we live spiritually forever. If man could live physically forever in a sinful state, there would be little incentive to repent.

 

Who is "We"? I have no idea who "we" is to you, you say you are not a Calvinist, I have no idea how you identify yourself.

The truth is, many teach that babies who die without baptism go to hell, many Calvinists and Reformed teach that non-elect babies go to hell. Some say all babies are elect.

There is the famous statement of Calvin himself; THERE ARE BABIES A SPAN LONG IN HELL.

So, don't tell me that all Reformed do not believe some babies go to hell. As far as your "we" is, I have no clue who that is, I hate to think there are more like you. :laugh:

A distinction without a difference, the result is the same, the moment you exist you are a sinner. But we are told in Romans 9:11 that unborn children have done no evil.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

You just said that Esau and Jacob sinned when Adam sinned, because the whole human nature existed in and acted when Adam acted, but the word of God said Esau and Jacob had done no evil.

You just don't get that your doctrine is not scriptural do you?

Saved from what? If Esau and Jacob had died in their mother's womb, what would they need to be saved from? Jesus saves us from SIN.

Now go and read about the elder brother in Luke 15 who never transgressed his father's commandment at any time. Maybe now you might have a clue who Jesus was speaking of.

Luk 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Remember it was Jesus himself who told this story, and Jesus knows doctrine better than you (I know that is almost impossible for you to believe).

When the elder son claimed to have never transgressed his father's commandment, did the father correct him? NO, the father actually verified this was true, he called the boy "Son", he said that he was "EVER" with me (no separation, no death), and ALL that he had was his. He also points out that only the prodigal son was "dead" and "lost" in contrast to the elder son.

Now put your thinking cap on and try to figure out who has never sinned like this elder son. I bet if you think real hard you can figure it out now.

But, knowing you, you will say Jesus was making up some imaginary persons who never existed. You simply deny scripture that refutes you.

I agree that Romans 5 is comparing Adam and Jesus. Where you err is that you apply death UNCONDITIONALLY to all men, where you apply justification to life CONDITIONALLY (actually, you tried to argue that justification is uncondtional, an absolute error that all reject. Justification is dependent upon believing on Jesus and is CONDITIONAL).

Romans 2 had already explained how men without law (which would include all men from Adam to Moses) die. They die because they have the law written on their hearts and conscience. This destroys your false interpretation of Romans 5:12-14.

Now you argue an OBVIOUS FALLACY, that a person dies as a result of Adam's sin AND their own personal sin. You want your cake and to eat it too.

No, God is not unjust. Even the Calvinist authors I showed you had serious problems with Original Sin because they saw it as unjust, and these guys are a lot smarter than you.

God said every man dies for his own sin, and that the son does not bear the iniquity of his father. You come along and say the exact opposite. Wow.

 

Biblicist, it is obvious you would argue with a fence-post, so you just go on and believe whatever you want. I will leave it to the readers to decide who has made a scriptural argument.