What is God waiting on?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Mar 16, 2007.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    A question for Calvinists:

    Why does the Bible talk about God's patience and longsuffering in regard to salvation? Within the Calvinistic system, what is God waiting on? If he is the one who effectually calls isn't He just waiting on Himself to do the work?

    How do you reconcile that with His being patient and longsuffering with us? If salvation is truly "all of God" what exactly is he waiting on?
     
  2. donnA

    donnA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    23,354
    Likes Received:
    0
    God has a time schedule of His own apart from any plans or thoughts of man. Why He waits, I do not know, He isn't obligated to tell us anything. But I won't be the one to argue against God's timing for anything.
     
  3. russell55

    russell55
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    Part of God's plan in creating the world is to show that he is a patient and longsuffering God, and every additional second that God doesn't destroy creation because of sin reveals that attribute of God more fully.

    In addition, part of his plan to save those he has chosen to save is to save them through the particular means he has chosen to use in each case. Carrying out his plan requires that he withhold his wrath and be patient and longsuffering toward them instead, until the time, according to his plan, when he applies Christ's death to them.
     
  4. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Messages:
    631
    Likes Received:
    0
    I really liked the way you worded that.
    Great answer.
     
  5. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,306
    Likes Received:
    0
    He will not, can not come, until the last person He has chosen before the foundation of the world hears the Gospel and responds. He will not come before that. He will not come early and loose one of His. This is of course MHO. :laugh:
     
  6. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    I second this answer, and second the applause for it. It's practically straight out of the Bible, too.
     
  7. MB

    MB
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    2,554
    Likes Received:
    13
    Hi RB;
    Strange that you believe this to be true and then claim that God is Sovereign. You see you just explained how His plan is Sovereign even over His own will. If it is His plan that is sovereign then He isn't. If He has to wait on man, then doesn't that makes man sovereign?
    MB
     
  8. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    If I have decided at noon I'm going to eat dinner at 6pm, how exactly am I demonstrating "patience"? :confused:

    Patience is the ability to endure waiting, delay, or provocation without becoming annoyed or upset, or to persevere calmly when faced with difficulties.

    God "endures" what He has decided to do anyway, without becoming annoyed or upset? he perseveres calmly when faced with the difficulties of the situation He decided? The definition of patience doesn't coincide with the calvinistic definition of patience, and makes absolutely no sense.

    This would be like me saying to myself at 3pm "stay calm, you decided to eat at 6pm...don't get annoyed or upset...this difficult situation I decided on will rectify itself".
     
    #8 webdog, Mar 16, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 16, 2007
  9. russell55

    russell55
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, because God's plan comes from his will. It is his will that produces the plan. That's why his plan is called the counsel of his will.

    His plan isn't sovereign. He is, and his plan is simply the record of every choice he has made as the sovereign God. Then, in time, that record of God's eternal choices becomes reality in history through his interaction with his creation.

    He doesn't wait on man. He waits to unfold his plan in history. He waits in order to work everything according to the counsel of his will.
     
  10. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,306
    Likes Received:
    0
    Absolutely not. I don't see how you came up with that. God's perfect plan is to come back after all those He has chosen have heard the Gospel and have responded... not until they are born and hear and respond will He come. He chose them before the foundation of the world. Read 2 Peter 3 in context. The scoffers were saying " Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.'' Peter was comforting the elect and telling them that God was patient toward them, that He would not be willing that any of them would perish.
    His plan is sovereign and He is sovereign. Some people think otherwise however. :tear:
     
  11. donnA

    donnA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    23,354
    Likes Received:
    0
    If man chooses who gets saved and who doesn't, doesn't that make him, man, sovereign?
     
  12. russell55

    russell55
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    Let's say that you have 10 cranky and disobedient children. You've decided that you are not going to send them to their rooms, but are going to endure their squabbling and their insults to you. As you endure, you are exercising patience, even though you are only doing what you have already decided to do.

    Or perhaps you have a coworker who regularly makes snide remarks to you. If you decide not to retaliate, but to return the insults with kindness, that still takes patience, even though you are only doing what you've already decided to do.

    God has wrath against human beings and Romans tells us it is being "stored up." Continuing to store it up rather than express it takes patience and longsuffering.
     
  13. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    MB.

    He is not waiting on man He is waiting for His plan to be worked out as He planned. If it happened any other way then His plan would have failed and He would not be Sovereign. :)

    webdog.

    There you go comparing yourself with God again. If you decide to wait for your meal you have no promise that He will let you eat it. He is patient because He could finish it now before the rest of the sheep are born.

    Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

    How do you answer this webdog? :)

    LA 3:37 Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? 38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?

    john.
     
  14. donnA

    donnA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    23,354
    Likes Received:
    0
    shows God in complete control, man 0 control
     
  15. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    As I stated prior, if God makes those 10 children be cranky, how is He showing patience? This definition of patience is NOT patience.
    If I tell the coworker to call me a jerk every five minutes, and I don't retaliate for him calling me names...I'm showing "patience"...how?
     
  16. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    So you are hyper, now, too?
     
  17. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    Webdog, just a friendly recommendation: Focus more on scripture and less on analogies.

    Yes, I use analogies once in a while, but I almost always regret it. Analogies are almost always inadequate for understanding scripture, and people tend to get caught up in the analogy and lose sight of what it was supposed to illustrate in the first place.
     
  18. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for the tip...I do. I would use less analogies if some people could use correct definitions for words to begin with.
     
    #18 webdog, Mar 16, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 16, 2007
  19. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    What man has ever chosen who gets saved? This strawman has been refuted PLENTY of times, and is getting quite old.
     
  20. russell55

    russell55
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    Your analogy doesn't work against Calvinism because no Calvinist believes God makes people sin.

    Once again, your analogy doesn't work as an argument against Calvinsim, since no Calvinist believes God tells people to sin.

    Exactly.
     
    #20 russell55, Mar 16, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 16, 2007

Share This Page

Loading...