WHAT IS GRACE?

Carson Weber · Jul 5, 2003

Hi DHK,

You wrote, "Paul never said Believe and be baptised and you shall be saved."

You're right.. it was actually Jesus who said it!

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:16).

He simply said Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Salvation is all of grace--the free unmerited favor of God.

The free, unmerited favor of God, which is received in baptism, according to St. Paul.

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his." (Rom 6:3-5)

You should also give a good reading over 1 Cor. 6:11, 12:13; Gal. 3:26–27; Eph. 5:25-27; Col. 2:11–12; and Titus 3:5.

DHK · Jul 5, 2003

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi DHK,

You wrote, "Paul never said Believe and be baptised and you shall be saved."

You're right.. it was actually Jesus who said it!

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:16).

He simply said Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Salvation is all of grace--the free unmerited favor of God.

The free, unmerited favor of God, which is received in baptism, according to St. Paul.

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his." (Rom 6:3-5)

You should also give a good reading over 1 Cor. 6:11, 12:13; Gal. 3:26–27; Eph. 5:25-27; Col. 2:11–12; and Titus 3:5.
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I am quite familiar with those verses Carson, as I am with the Biblical definition of grace. Notice in the particular passage in Romans 6:3-5, that you quoted, that Paul deliberately uses the pronoun "we" including himself. He, a Christian, is writing to Christians. In this passage he gives the symbolism of immersion (the correct translation of the word "baptidzo." For in immersion there is the picture of the believer's death and burial to his old life of sin, and then his resurrection to a new life in Jesus Christ. It also symbolizes the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is a picture for the believer, the one who calls upon the name of the Lord--that one who can only become a Christian by understanding the gospel message and actively believing the gospel message by his own volition and understanding. This rules out all infants, and infant baptism. It also rules out all baptism by sprinkling and pouring. It is a picture of a believer's baptism (immersion only).
All baptism is after salvation. No baptism precedes salvation. Baptism is a work.

Rom.11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Eph.2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If baptism is included in your salvation then, "grace is no more grace."
Take your argument up with God.
DHK

Yelsew · Jul 5, 2003

Grace is Unmerited Favor? Does unmerited favor Save? If you have favor toward someone that is unearned, does that favor do anything to or for the other? So, What then does grace do?

DHK · Jul 5, 2003

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Grace is Unmerited Favor? Does unmerited favor Save? If you have favor toward someone that is unearned, does that favor do anything to or for the other? So, What then does grace do?
Click to expand...

Grace is free unmerited favor, favor being a gift. The grace provides mankind with the free gift of God: eternal life (Rom.6:23). It is free; I simply receive it by faith. It is unmerited; there is no work that I can do to pay for it. It is a gift to be received freely by faith. What else would a "favor" be?
DHK

Yelsew · Jul 5, 2003

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
Grace is Unmerited Favor? Does unmerited favor Save? If you have favor toward someone that is unearned, does that favor do anything to or for the other? So, What then does grace do?
Click to expand...

Grace is free unmerited favor, favor being a gift. The grace provides mankind with the free gift of God: eternal life (Rom.6:23). It is free; I simply receive it by faith. It is unmerited; there is no work that I can do to pay for it. It is a gift to be received freely by faith. What else would a "favor" be?
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]See, as well versed as you are in grace and salvation, you too make the mistake of confusing the Gift, which is Jesus the Christ who atoned for sin so that we can have eternal life through our faith; with the condition of the Giver. Grace is God's Condition in which he gave us Jesus to teach us and to die for us and in our stead so that we, by believing in Jesus, can have eternal life through our faith. It is not God's Grace that saves us, but faith through which God saves us.

Yes, there is no price tag on God's condition of Grace, He is gracious toward us because he wants to be gracious toward us. The Gift that he gives out of his grace is Jesus and the atonement that Jesus gave. Through our faith in Jesus and the Father, He saves us into eternal life. Yes God's Grace makes it all possible for us to be saved, but it is not God's grace that saves us. It is as Jesus told Nicodemus, Whosoever believeth shall have eternal life. And Yes it is as Jesus Told Nicodemus, Whosoever believeth is not judged, but whosoever BELIEVETH NOT is CONDEMNED ALREADY.

Grace is not the gift that God gives. Grace is the "attitude in which God gives his Gift of eternal life though faith in his son.

Eladar · Jul 5, 2003

DHK,

Salvation is all of the grace of God. He provided it all, and for all of mankind. However it is efficacious only to those who receive it by faith.
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It is on efficacious to the who do what?

Eladar · Jul 5, 2003

OK, let me try to write something that might make sense this time:

God's grace is only capable of producing a desired effect for those people who do what?

Evidently, you say that all one must do is put faith in God's gift. Yet this is still an action. It is a payment for the action of putting faith in God.

In order to receive God's grace, one must merit it by doing something and that something is putting faith in Him. You bash peole who say that baptism is necessary because it requires an action, yet you teach the same idea, just a different action.

Yelsew · Jul 5, 2003

Originally posted by Tuor:
OK, let me try to write something that might make sense this time:

God's grace is only capable of producing a desired effect for those people who do what?

Evidently, you say that all one must do is put faith in God's gift. Yet this is still an action. It is a payment for the action of putting faith in God.

In order to receive God's grace, one must merit it by doing something and that something is putting faith in Him. You bash peole who say that baptism is necessary because it requires an action, yet you teach the same idea, just a different action.
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TUOR, What effort does one expend to believe? NONE whatever! You either believe or you don't believe, no effort expended. Thus no work performed. Receiving a gift is not even putting forth your hand to receive it, for that happens after one believes the gift is his. So believing is receiving, no effort expended. Try it with anything.

Let's say your sweetie made you something special that she knew you would really like. She brings it to you and tells you it is a gift to you. If you do not believe her you will not reach out and receive the gift. But if you do believe her, you eagerly reach out and accept what she offers. Now tell me, did believing her take any effort at all on your part? NONE Whatever! It is the same with believing the word of God. You believe with no effort, when you believe you accept.

Believing is something that humans do, but it is not a work, for there is nothing to be gained by believing. You can believe with all your might that you are going to be rich, yet die in utter poverty because you did nothing with your belief. So you see that believing is the first thing that must occur before anything else can happen.

Eladar · Jul 5, 2003

OK, I just deleted a big long post. Here is what I am trying to say:

Yes, I agree with you that we receive God's grace when we accept Jesus as Lord. This is not a physical act. It is a mental/spiritual act, but it is not a physical act yet I maintain that it is an act all the same.

After we have accepted Jesus as Lord and have accepted God's grace, the Bible teaches us that certain physical acts will result. If one does not follow God's commands after saying that one has accepted Jesus as Lord, then one is a liar. (See 1 John 2)

The Bible clearly states that those who accept Jesus as Lord are to be baptized. If a person does not get baptized, then one is not following one of God's commands. According to 1 John 2, such a person is a liar.

There are a whole list of things that are the actions of the flesh that we are to not do if we are God's children and there are a whole list of things that are the fruits of the spirit which are things that we are to do if we are God's children. Once again, if we accept what is wrong and reject what is right, and act accordingly, we are liars if we claim to have accepted Jesus as Lord.

In short, yes technically you are correct(that our salvation is initially based on a spiritual decision), but for all practical purposes you are incorrect(that our salvation is never dependant upon physical actions).

DHK · Jul 5, 2003

Faith is pitted against works in the Bible, so that the Bible says if it is by faith, it is not by works; if it is by works it is not by faith. Thus by simple logic faith is not a work. Thus your argument must be taken up with God not us. He wrote the Bible. He made the differentiation. Call Him a liar if you will.

Romans 4:3-6
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Verses 4 and 5 provide the key here. To him the worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace. If works is involved the gift you receive is NOT of grace.

To him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousnes. It is simple. No works--only faith; then you receive the gift of God by grace. Then you are made righteous. It is not by works. Faith is not called or considered a work in any way here. Your argument is with God. Salvation is by grace, and not by works. Faith is not a work.
For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God not of works lest any man should boast.
DHK

Yelsew · Jul 5, 2003

Originally posted by Tuor:
OK, I just deleted a big long post. Here is what I am trying to say:

Yes, I agree with you that we receive God's grace when we accept Jesus as Lord. This is not a physical act. It is a mental/spiritual act, but it is not a physical act yet I maintain that it is an act all the same.

After we have accepted Jesus as Lord and have accepted God's grace, the Bible teaches us that certain physical acts will result. If one does not follow God's commands after saying that one has accepted Jesus as Lord, then one is a liar. (See 1 John 2)

The Bible clearly states that those who accept Jesus as Lord are to be baptized. If a person does not get baptized, then one is not following one of God's commands. According to 1 John 2, such a person is a liar.

There are a whole list of things that are the actions of the flesh that we are to not do if we are God's children and there are a whole list of things that are the fruits of the spirit which are things that we are to do if we are God's children. Once again, if we accept what is wrong and reject what is right, and act accordingly, we are liars if we claim to have accepted Jesus as Lord.

In short, yes technically you are correct(that our salvation is initially based on a spiritual decision), but for all practical purposes you are incorrect(that our salvation is never dependant upon physical actions).
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I understand Tuor, but you are calling faith (believing) an action, but when one transitions from no faith to faith it is not an act at all but a change in recognition of reality.

Coming to faith is like being in a dark room where though your eyes are wide open you cannot see. There is nothing wrong with your eyes, you simply cannot see. Suddenly there is a faint warm glow and you can begin to see some of the shapes of things in the room. As the glow increases in intensity you begin to see more details. Yet, you are "doing nothing" and you are seeing greater detail. As the glow becomes a low light you see even greater detail yet you are still "doing nothing except absorbing that which comes into your vision. As the light increases the details continue to sharpen until at some point with light just right, you see everything in its proper perspective. You have done nothing at all in this except see with your God given vision.

Jesus is the Light of the world (Matt 4:16, Luke 1:79, Luke 2:29-32, John 1;4, 9, 3:19, and more) In him there is no darkness. Your "vision", that is, "your believing" now provides you with the ability to act and to do good works.

Now that you can see, it is up to you to act on what is there. You cannot deny that it is there because you see it! While you were in the dark you could do nothing, because you could see nothing.

What I've just described is the faith "process". At the beginning of the process you are in utter darkness. Because you are in utter darkness, if the light was to come on with full intensity it would blind you and you would not be able to see, but for a different reason. That is why God gradually increases your light over time, so that you are not blinded by the light. God gives you light in the proportion that you can tolerate it, and everyone is different in their ability to tolerate the light. Even so, the first image that your eyes see is the image of Jesus, because he is the source of the light that illuminates all spiritual things.

Yelsew · Jul 5, 2003

Let's get back to Grace.

We know that Grace is "unmerited Favor"
We know that one can give gifts out of grace.
We know that God's Grace is universal.
We know that Grace is how God behaves toward us.
We know that God's grace provides the atmosphere in which man can come to believe in God, especially in God's only Son, that wonderful gift given to us in God's grace.

Finally, Does man have grace as an attribute?

DHK · Jul 5, 2003

Eph.4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

Col.3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

(Col 4:6 KJV) Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

1Pet.3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

Yelsew · Jul 6, 2003

And now we know that Man also has grace as an attribute, in the image of God.

Can grace which is an attribute be given as if it is a commodity? Can Love be given as if a commodity?

If you give someone your love, do you run out of love? No, because you are not giving your love, but tokens of your love. The things you give, the things you do, the words you say are all tokens of your love, and the means by which one recognizes your motives.

I believe Grace is the same. There are things we give of our grace, things we do out of our grace, and things we say and ways we behave out of our grace. Just like God.

Singer · Jul 6, 2003

Please tell me this Grace thing isn't something we need to understand before
salvation can take place ! It's gettin' to be a deep subject.

I'm still tryin to figger out how Jesus coulda been a Catholic

Guess I belong to the "Whosoever" Church.

Yelsew · Jul 6, 2003

Originally posted by Singer:
Please tell me this Grace thing isn't something we need to understand before
salvation can take place ! It's gettin' to be a deep subject.

I'm still tryin to figger out how Jesus coulda been a Catholic

Guess I belong to the "Whosoever" Church.
Click to expand...

I would suggest that if one does not understand what grace is, does, and how it is used and who has it, one could easily be deceived into thinking that grace has powers that it does not have and thereby replace the one who saves with that which does not save.

Singer · Jul 6, 2003

Yelsew,

But............but you and DHK do not agree on Grace, what it is and how
it works, whether it's a gift or whether Jesus is the gift .

So..............so does that mean that just possibly one of you is wrong and therefore
deceived into following "that which does not save" (Satan)....?

I don't see either of you as wrong. To insist that one needs to understand fully
the aspects of grace and who knows how many other topics, it is putting quite
a demand on the newcomer to Christianity. Imagine a child of 10 who wants to
"be saved". Would you require the same mindset of the issue of grace thatYou
have upon him or her.....with a failure to do so a suggestion that they are
following satan instead ?

Yelsew · Jul 10, 2003

Originally posted by Singer:
Yelsew,

But............but you and DHK do not agree on Grace, what it is and how
it works, whether it's a gift or whether Jesus is the gift .

So..............so does that mean that just possibly one of you is wrong and therefore
deceived into following "that which does not save" (Satan)....?

I don't see either of you as wrong. To insist that one needs to understand fully
the aspects of grace and who knows how many other topics, it is putting quite
a demand on the newcomer to Christianity. Imagine a child of 10 who wants to
"be saved". Would you require the same mindset of the issue of grace thatYou
have upon him or her.....with a failure to do so a suggestion that they are
following satan instead ?
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Why are you asking me? Do you say by so doing that I am wrong about Grace? If yes, then that must mean that You and I do not agree on Grace either and one of us must be wrong and since I am saying so, it must be you that is wrong!

The fact is, too many people want to make grace into something it is not, giving it powers it does not have, and blaming it for things it has not done. For example, Grace hasn't saved a single person, but without it not one person would be saved. To say that grace saves one is to deny that faith is what saves. You cannot have it both ways, but the two work together.

Singer · Jul 10, 2003

No, not really disagreeing. Whether someone sees Grace as the gift or
Jesus as the Gift....shouldn't be condemned. The 'unspeakable gift' is Jesus
that is offered by Grace. You guys are both right. It doesn't deserve division
of the body of Christ to think either way.

Yes, By grace Through Faith.

DHK · Jul 10, 2003

Originally posted by Singer:
Yelsew,

But............but you and DHK do not agree on Grace, what it is and how
it works, whether it's a gift or whether Jesus is the gift .

Click to expand...

I don't remember disagreeing with Yelsew over the topic of grace. I think we pretty much agree.

Grace is the free unmerited favor of God.

WHAT IS GRACE?

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