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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Salty, Jul 4, 2011.
Just exactly is Joel saying - or not saying?
He is making a public confession that he is clueless on the person and work of Christ...and would not know the gospel if it hit him over the head,
This is a denial of one of the clearest teachings in the bible..the woman caller from arizona ,and even larry king were trying to prod him to answer the question..and he departed from revealed truth. the fear of man bringeth a snare.
This was disgraceful. Any Christian would love to have a chance to answer that question.
Haven t you noticed his "Name it & Claim it" Agenda? Very popular with scripturally ignorant
This is the extreme and logical end of free-will, mans glory. Nearly everything he speaks of is "You You You!!!"
It's sad when the woman calls in and thanks him for all his positive messages. A lot of people are going to hell and feel good about themselves. He helps facilitate this.
This is a primary reason why I do not cave into that type of beliefs because I see people like this guy & Rob Bell & so for me it's a no, no, no.
2Co 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising (transfiguring) themselves as apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
This passage applies to them both.
That is absolutely untrue. The problem with Joel Osteen isn't "free will" (except that he is exercising it). The problem is false teaching which goes on in the reformed camp as well. Osteen has departed from the clear teaching of scripture as to WHO Christ is.
I disagree about the free-will issue in this. It's not only that has he preached another Christ and another Gospel, to this I agree with you. In his false Gospel it is "all man" and all "mans abilities" being exaggerated. Look at his writings to understand this also.
Not only is he preaching a false Christ and Gospel, he is also preaching another "mankind" and a presenting a differing state of this man as according to the Scriptures, and the man he preaches is exalted, able to do anything man wants to do by his power of positive thinking and free will choices. Anytime man is exalted in the Gospel, it is false teaching.
I've listened to much of his false teachings. Man is exalted. Mans potential is exalted above Christ. It's seen also in his books.
Joel is saying that he believes Jesus is the way to heaven, BUT he is not sure that he is the only way. By the way MANY Baptists have this same view, but are afraid to say it because they would be cut to pieces from others. If you don't believe that many Baptists hold this same view as Joel then just consider the false teaching of backsliding which helps shield this false belief that Joel admits to.
Amy, you must see that what Olstein preaches is completely man centered & thats why he has the following he has. Heaven forbid he should become unpopular with the crowd by following Orthodox teaching & claiming that Christ & Christ alone saves. Then he would loose the $Ca Ching that is his "real idol" Al Mohler is the complete reverse ....here he is again standing with Scripture (Big Difference)!
I agree completely. But believing man has a free will doesn't make him a false teacher. It's what he believes or doesn't believe about Christ that makes him a false teacher/prophet.
Half of Joels fans are most likely apostate baptists.or RC's...who else would listen to him?
If you want to hear a positive message...go to an amway meeting.....
you can get all his books....In Walmart.
This is actually pretty old stuff. Right after this aired, the firestorm roared. Joel apologized for his imprecision on his website and affirmed the historic understanding of the exclusivity of Christ.
His problem is that he may believe that, he just doesn't want to preach that. That might run some folks off, you see. He doesn't want to preach negative stuff, such as that people are lost and going to hell. So he just preaches positive stuff, don't ya see.
It boils down to more than what he thinks of just Christ. Does he believe all of Gods Word? I believe Gods children believe all of Gods Word, showing that they are His sheep. Joh_10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. Joh_10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: Joh 8:47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."
I want to clarify that I don't believe if one believes in free-will that automatically they are a false teacher. I certainly hope this is not what anyone is trying to attatch to me.
I will though affirm that Joel Osteen takes this free-will to its extreme humanistic end. Man is glorified and enabled to do anything, of course, for himself. It also centers around covetous behavior. It has to, it's man made religion hr is preaching. The disciples believed without Him they could do nothing. I believe this also. They also preached about mans sin. I don't see Olsteen embracing this. To him, man is pretty well off, just listen to him. If he preached sin and the lostness of man, then he'd decrease his church number dramatically.
Anyhow, I used to believe in free-will, now, not so much.
Jesus alone saves, the Gospel isn't whether we are free-will or not. It's that Christ died, was buried and resurrected, and was seen, and it is the dunamis of this message that saves, Romans 1:16; For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
I do, however, believe that as one grows in the faith, ones theology will begin to expose ones true belief in how one gets saved, whether it is God alone, or not that saves. I know many people who started off right, and ended up wrong, and have turned to more humanistic man-centered theologies.
Keep in mind, as is the manner of some to accuse, I am not alluding to Arminians. But I do belive that belief in free-will may lead some to this extreme end such as where Osteen has ended himself.
"I" don't think the "issue" with Joel is "free will", rather he seems to ONLY want to preach on "positive" things and ways to make people more "positive" and happy people and the expense of the truth that God is not simply in the "happiness" and feel good business. That is what "I" think is the questionable issue with Mr. Olsteen.
To be clear, I think there is a place for assisting people to have a more positive and emotionally satsifying existence, but I think it should more appropriately be done through the balance and tensions and truth "happy" or not found in the pages of scripture.
Anything taken to the extreme leads to error, including Calvinism. But the OP wasn't talking about just any disagreement about scripture, but specifically about the exclusiveness of Christ and salvation. That is what I was posting about. Osteen's wishy washy testimony in effect was saying that many roads lead to salvation. The topic of free will has nothing to do with his attempt to please all people of all faiths. That was my point.
We have to be honest here and set our co-belligerency (warfare) aside against one another to hear what one is really saying.
Too many times have my words been construed to be against arminianism when it's never been brought up by me. A la "So what you're saying!!!...???" T
If I want to something concisely, I'll say it right out in the open. I don't say this to come across a "tuff-guy" it's just how I do things. If it's not there, don't eisegete it into my words. There is no need for that at all. This is not toward you quantumfaith.
Olsteens extreme free-will has ousted the exclusiveness of Christ alone. It does fit with the OP.
I did not think I did that (just now) rather I indeed said "Thank You" and then went on to state "my opinion" regarding Mr. Olsteen, nothing in there was corrective or snippy. (That is how I see it and "penned" it)