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What Is Meant By A Literal Translation?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by TCGreek, Jul 27, 2007.

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  1. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. I like the ESV in some places, but generally I think it resembles its predecessor too much and could have done a better job.

    2. Keep that in mind if I ever come to Japan.

    3. Don't you think you are slighting the NIV too much? I like the NIV in some places more than other versions.

    4. Because I take an expository approach to preaching, the NIV I have found doesn't work too well with me. I make points from sentence structures and word order and conjunction, which I think the NIV has taken away from me (The TNIV has restored some of the conjunctions, etc).

    5. A good bargain! But I'll be the only one sitting in. :thumbs:
     
    #21 TCGreek, Jul 30, 2007
  2. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Where the NIV got it right is that the translation was given to a review board of English experts in order to produce a translation that was done in beautiful English. When it came out and I read it, I predicted that it would be very successful for that reason, and so it is. This is the very reason the KJV (and NKJV) have been so successful, by the way, and why the KJV has influenced the English language so much.

    This is where my translation principles resemble the NIV. Uncle Miya and I are trying to produce a translation that is very readable while being faithful to the original. I still feel, though, that the NIV goes too far in that direction compared to my translation. I guess you'd have to read both English and Japanese to judge that, though. Anyone? :cool: ;)

    Also, since I am a Byzantine/Majority/TR advocate, the NIV's eclectic approach is not for me.
    Exactly!
     
    #22 John of Japan, Jul 30, 2007
  3. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    On The Subject Of Conjunctions

    This piece is from D.a.Carson's book : The King James Version Debate .(pp.96-97) .

    (1) Greek tends to use a connective at the head of every sentence unless it wants a specific break . To translate all such connectives literally is poor English , which does not adopt the same stylist feature . This explains the very high proportion of sentences in the KJV that begin with a conjunction . (2) The semantic range of Greek connectives is far wider than many introductory grammar books admit . For example , one might think of gar as meaning "for" ; but there are times when smooth , accurate translation might be better served by "but."
     
    #23 Rippon, Jul 30, 2007
  4. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I agree with this. What most folk forget when considering the conjunctions in the Greek NT is that the originals had no punctuation. Personally, I believe that many of the de and kai conjunctions in particular were simply to mark new sentences.
     
    #24 John of Japan, Jul 30, 2007
  5. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. While I agree with you guys to some extent in the quoting of Carson, BTW his book is what weaned me off the KJV, that's another thread, I have benefited greatly from David Alan Black, et al, discourse analysis approach to the reading of the text.

    2. In discourse analysis I have really seen the true beauty of connectives like de and kai.

    3. For example, I see kai euthus and kai + as a heavy semantic influence in Mark's narrative. At times, some of them can be untranslated as long as there's that flow.

    4. Then when one come's to the epistles, IMO, the connectives become more important.

    5. I find that of all Paul's writings, 2 Corinthians to be the most difficult to read at times. Again, the emotive element influenced the syntax.
     
    #25 TCGreek, Jul 30, 2007
  6. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I'm still working on discourse analysis, though I did get to talk some about it with a Greek prof at Maranatha BBC grad school in WI two years ago. :( I'm old school. The last Greek class I took was at Temple Bapt. Sem. in 1986. Here in Japan I teach from Machen, because almost none of the newer stuff has been translated. Machen is the latest thing over here!
    I'll agree with that. Connectives are not as important in the narratives as in the epistles, where you have to keep the flow of thought going.
    Hah! Anything by Paul is hard to read or translate. I'm working on Ephesians now. Imagine putting ch. 2 into understandable Japanese! Whew. And some of his sentences are so long--clause after clause with an occasional parenthetic clause stuck in. :BangHead:
     
    #26 John of Japan, Jul 31, 2007
  7. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    Since I am not capable of a meaningful correspondence, I would best make use of my time avoiding any correalation with these of such magnitude of vernacular strength, BUT! Since I am too simple to argue from the scholarly stance on these highly convoluted subjects, my only answer to the OP is that a literal translation is as in being opposed to an alliteral translation.
     
    #27 Salamander, Jul 31, 2007
  8. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    I know already you really don't like me responding to your statements, but I have to ask, to what "original" are you comparing to make your assumption as remaining faithful to that original?
     
    #28 Salamander, Jul 31, 2007
  9. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    The TR. Happy now?
     
    #29 John of Japan, Jul 31, 2007
  10. Plain Old Bill

    Plain Old Bill New Member

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    I find no fault in that. I lean that direction myself.:godisgood:
     
    #30 Plain Old Bill, Jul 31, 2007
  11. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    TC, In your opinion, with respect to English translations (assuming limited or no Greek knowledge) what is the role in the Bible student's skills in English grammar in deciding the meaning of a passage of scripture or in evaluating a translation?

    What I'm getting at is we discuss the merits and pitfalls of various translations but if we don't know or understand proper English, how far can we actually go in terms of knowledge of the true intent regardless of which translation we use?

    Another point, in a review of the ESV, Rodney Decker (his review has been mentioned on this board by another poster) talks about the trend now-a-days regarding the placement and use of punctuation in modern English translations. If you compare the ESV to say the NKJV, you will find areas (NT) where the text is simular, but different punctuation makes for different reading. Do you know anything about this?
     
    #31 thomas15, Aug 3, 2007
  12. BobinKy

    BobinKy New Member

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    Thomas15 asked some interesting questions--I wished some would answer them.

    Otherwise, this is good thread about translators and their style.

    ...Bob
     
    #32 BobinKy, Jun 10, 2011
  13. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Enjoying the BB archives, Bob?

    Actually, there is a LOT of good stuff in there.
     
    #33 franklinmonroe, Jun 10, 2011
  14. mandym

    mandym New Member

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    J. I. Packer might be of some help

    http://www.bible-researcher.com/packer1.html
     
    #34 mandym, Jun 11, 2011
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