What is meant by Cals when they ask: do you believe "by our own ability?"

That would be me (at least, I won't speak for anyone else). I see nothing that you or anyone else has argued that can dispel the notion that the ability to have faith and belief was removed in the fall.

It is rather childish (intellectually speaking) of you to attempt to pigeonhole Skan into that position.

 

The only verse that can remotely be interpreted to say faith is a gift is Eph. 2:8 which scholars have disagreed on for centuries. I believe (along with many others) that the free gift spoken of is salvation, not faith.

On the other hand, there are many verses that clearly show faith belongs to the individual.

Mat 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Mk 10:52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.

Lk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Mt 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

Llk 8:25 And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.

This is just a portion of the many verses of scripture that shows faith belongs to the individual. And you know what all these verses I have posted have in common? They were all said by Jesus!

And Luke 8:25 would not make sense if your doctrine is true. Why would Jesus ask his disciples where there faith was? Wouldn't he know that he did not give them faith in this instance?

The scriptures also say Jesus marvelled at some people's faith.

Mt 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

If Jesus gave this centurion his great faith, why would he marvel?

Mk 6:6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Why did Jesus marvel at his fellow countrymen's unbelief? Did he forget faith had not been given to them?

You base your whole doctrine on one verse that has been debated for centuries, and completely ignore literally dozens of verses that directly say faith belongs to the individual. Either you are ignorant of the scriptures, or you willingly disregard many scriptures that refutes your view.

 

Do you see anything that inspires the notion it was there in beginning? Did Adam have faith in God, or was his knowledge of God by sight?

It doesn't appear to me he believed God's warning that he would die if he ate the fruit.

If he's pigeonholed, he did it to himself.

He can say, Yes, faith is a natural ability, as you have done here, and as DHK has asserted elsewhere, or He can say, no, it is not a natural ability anymore than the gifts of prophecy or healing or tongues.

Then we can deal with the implications of such assertions.

 

For by grace are you saved.
You are saved is the is the subject and verb of this sentence. All the focus is right here.
"By grace" is a prepositional phrase defining the verb telling how one is saved."

For by grace are you saved through faith.

You are saved through faith. "through faith" is another prepositional phrase defining the verb telling the means by which one is saved.

IT (salvation) is the gift of God.
This is another sentence. It is the subject going back to the subject and verb of the previous sentence--salvation. Salvation is the gift of God.

Faith is never described as the gift of God in the Bible. It is only a gift when it is one of the spiritual gifts which have now ceased, and was only given to believers, never to an unbeliever. It is one of the fruit of the Spirit. It is not something that is given to the unsaved--never. You won't find this concept anywhere in the Bible. Built from this verse it is unbiblical, and is not even grammatically correct.

The verse goes on.
"and that not of yourselves." Salvation is not of oneself. You can't make it on your own. This has nothing to do with faith. It has to do with merit. There is nothing that man can do to gain entrance to heaven. It is not of oneself.

 

"That" is a demonstrative pronoun that refers to salvation by grace through faith. There's not one part of it that is of yourself, neither the salvation, the grace nor the faith.

 

Agreed.
So contrary to your previous statement:

and that [faith] not of yourselves:

"That" does not refer to "faith" but rather to salvation, as you posted here.

 

Or possibly he indeed believed God, but CHOSE to rebel. Yes I say it is a natural ability (granted by God by design) from the very beginning. No, I don't think he is pigeonholed, I think that is what you were trying to assert with your argument.

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

The word “that” is a neuter gender. There are different forms of this word, masculine, feminine, and neuter. If it were a feminine form of the word, then it would refer to “faith”, which is also a feminine word. But because it is “neuter”, it is referring to the act of being saved.
Our salvation does not come from us, it comes from God. We do not save ourselves, God saves us.

 

:laugh: You need to read it again. It's the whole kit and kaboodle, the salvation and every part of it, grace and faith. None of it is of yourself.

 

You misunderstand the non-Cal position.
Salvation is all of God. We all agree on that. There is no quarrel here. On that point you simply argue with yourself. No one is disagreeing with you.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. (Romans 11:6)
Salvation is by grace. Grace and works do not mix. We know by this verse that Grace is not a human work. It is the work of God; the work of Christ on the cross.

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (John 6:28-29)
--The Jews asked "What shall we do?
They believed salvation was by good works.

Jesus uses a play on words. The only thing the could "DO" was to "believe."
Believing or having faith is not a work. This is the teaching of Christ.
Faith is not a work of man.
Neither grace nor faith are works of man.

Salvation is all of God--completely of God.

Man is born with an innate ability to believe. But it is not a work. What work do you do to "have faith?" Who would hire you and for how much "to have faith"? It is not work or a work that can be done.

Salvation is all of God. When you accuse a non-Cal of believing that it isn't, then you make a false accusation. He doesn't believe that; he believes the same as you do--salvation is all of God--from the beginning to the end.

 

Whatever, DHK. On one hand you say it isn't of yourself, and on the other you say it is.

My question was posed to Scandal.

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: yes Willis.....................

 

Quantum,

Our wills were not immune from the effects of the fall.When people speak of Human Inability, or Total deprvity.....they are refering to the fact that the Image in man has been twisted and perverted by the fall.....

Whatever Adam's will was before the fall, while still untested.....no longer exists. We are being restored as image bearers In Christ...conformed to His image......is it okay if I say we as believers are .....predestined to be conformed to His image:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

Saving faith is a part of the gift of salvation, as is saving repentance.....when Jesus saves us..we get the whole package...not just part of it.

 

Repent and be saved.
Believe and be saved.

The commands precede the reward (salvation).
God does't give you a reward in order for you to get a reward.
He commands you to obey in order to receive a reward.

The reward is salvation in obedience to his command.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

 

DHK... consider these..

 

Considering Acts 11:18--"God granting repentance"; it is awkwardly worded here. The meaning is: "to be willing to pardon upon repentance," according to Jamieson, Faucett and Brown (staunch Calvinists). God, at this point in history was willing to pardon repentance to the Gentiles. The time that the gospel; the time for the Gentiles to repent and believe the gospel; had come. It was no longer for the Jews only, but now for the Jews and the Greeks (Gentiles).

 

matthew henry

DHK...scroll down on this link;
http://bible.cc/acts/11-18.htm