1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

What is music?

Discussion in 'Music Ministry' started by Aaron, Aug 14, 2005.

  1. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    Music is an abstract like anything else we derive meaning from. By abstract I mean to say that it is symbolic of the intent, emotion, or thought being communicated. All language works this way. I really don't see the point in defining music as rhythm and melody and that sort of thing. In fact I don't know that I can come up with a perfect definition for it. I know it when I hear it.
     
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    In other words you are driven by carnal emotion to come up with your own definition of music. Music is what makes you feel good or bad according to your mood. You completely disregard the actual concrete components of music.
    DHK
     
  3. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    Yet another example of how you constantly cross the line.

    Music doesn't make me do anything. I am fully accountable for my actions before God.
     
  4. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    20,253
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Music is an abstract like anything else we derive meaning from. By abstract I mean to say that it is symbolic of the intent, emotion, or thought being communicated. All language works this way. I really don't see the point in defining music as rhythm and melody and that sort of thing. In fact I don't know that I can come up with a perfect definition for it. I know it when I hear it. </font>[/QUOTE]Are you saying that music is a symbol, as the letter "R" is a symbol? That it's a manmade representation of an idea, and that to understand it, one must be taught it?
     
  5. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    I think there is an element to music which can be widely if not universally understood. That is to say I believe most people would recognize "Taps" as sad or sorrowful. However, the melody we know as "Taps" is still fully symbolic because it isn't in and of itself sadness or sorrow.
     
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
     
  7. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    You feel you have the authority to go around accusing anyone of being carnal or engaging in sin whenever it suits you. You are self righteous, arrogant, and you have no business being in a position of authority here or anywhere else.

    If I am drawing from self serving desires in my understanding and interpretation of music, then demonstrate from Scripture that this is the case. If you cannot, remain silent.


    Incorrect. I said I don't see the point in defining music in terms of rhythm and melody and so on, and I don't think I can come up with a perfect definition for it. The reason is (a)music is symbolic like anything else we derive meaning from and (b) people have varying ideas about what music is (some think all kinds of atonal experimentation should be considered music). Of course if you actually read my posts instead of jumping to impulsive, unfounded accusations you'd already understand where I am coming from. Because you are more interested in tearing others down than you are in fellowship or healthy debate I suspect you will continue to have a lot of catching up to do.


    Everything that comprises the English language had to be defined because it is not innately understood.

    If I told you I was going to F**king Austria you would no doubt try to have me banned for foul language but the fact is that F**king is an actual town in Austria. How can this be if language is concrete? Don't those people know what the F word means?


    And that's good enough for me. i don't feel the need to come up with a perfect, all inclusive definition for it.

    I've never said anything close to that.

    You are going by a preconceived notion which doesn't relate to my argument at all.

    I think all language, whether musical, verbal, written, or coded in semaphore or morse code on an aldis lamp can be concretely defined as symbolic communication. That is to say anything we use to communicate our thoughts, feelings, intents or desires is only representative of thoughts, feelings, intents or desires. Language is not and cannot be thoughts, feelings, intents or desires. Those things only exist in the heart.


    Music cannot make one do anything one does not want to do.

    [ September 11, 2005, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Travelsong ]
     
  8. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    20,253
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I think there is an element to music which can be widely if not universally understood. That is to say I believe most people would recognize "Taps" as sad or sorrowful. However, the melody we know as "Taps" is still fully symbolic because it isn't in and of itself sadness or sorrow. </font>[/QUOTE]So it isn't a symbol, as "R" is a symbol. Are the universally recognized musical elements man made, or are they simply discovered.
     
  9. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    20,253
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It will certainly make one feel a certain way, whether he wants to or not.

    Proverbs 25:20 As he that taketh away a garment in cold weather, and as vinegar upon nitre, so is he that singeth songs to an heavy heart.
     
  10. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    I think letters are a poor comparison. I would say it is a symbol in the same way that a frown is a symbol. A frown indicates sadness or sorrow, but a frown is not in and of itself sadness or sorrow.


    Everything that man has ever done has been established by God. Man has created nothing. Language is no exception.

    I'm sorry but I don't see how this supports your assertion. If I am happy, "Taps" is not going to make me cry against my will.
     
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    Why are you so upset? Did I accuse you of engaging in sin of anykind? No. Why the false allegations? Keep to the subject of music and you will be better off. Your post is exactly how you treat music--emotional.
    I am not sure what you are talking about. As you infer: Let God be your judge.
    But if you are simply talking about the definition of music, there is one. You can find one in the dictionary; you can find one in music textbooks; and they will give you concrete definitions. But you would rather define music through your emotions. Instead of debating that point rationally you ironically give me an irrational emotional response. What's with that??
    You don't see a need for defining music. That doesn't mean there isn't a need for defining music. The same is true for any language. What would a deaf person who uses sign language "say" to that? Words have meanings. Sign language has meaning in its symbols that it uses. And the notes of music have meanings as well, in the way that they are used. Don't use the wrong signs in sign language or you may get yourself in trouble. The same is true in music. Paul says as much in 1Cor.14:
    1 Corinthians 14:7-8 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
    For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

    In many cases listening to the wrong music can be big trouble. You may be retreating instead of advancing, or you just may be entirely confused. You need to know your music, the sounds, and what they mean.
    The language is concrete, and your example inaccurate. I am sure you can come up with a better example. The one you used is inaccurate because the English alphabet does not use stars in its alphabet, and I am not going to say anything further than that because we are speaking only of the English language, and of music. I am quite willing to compare music to a language. I have a number of musicians in my house, and am acquainted with music of other cultures. I also know more than just one or two langauges. In learning a second language I learn it on the basis of grammar. You need to know the grammar. When my children learn to play the piano, one of the first things they have to learn is to "read" music. That is the language that they have to learn.
    Sometimes "good enough for me," is not good enough. If my daughter said: "I don't feel the need to come up with..." to her music teacher, she would flunk out immediately. Good definitions are available and essential. The are concrete, not abstract. They are well-defined, not emotionally charged.
    But you have. You want to get away from defining music within the paramaters of melody, rhythmn, and harmony, etc., and other essentials that go into the composition of music. You don't see that it is necessary to do so. You imply that you can define music in an emotional way, the way that it affects you emotionally.
    Not true. Ironically, you are answering me with your own pre-conceived ideas of my views on music. [​IMG]
    Language is more than symbolic.
    Language is a vehicle that carries those feelings and desires; feelings of anger, or feelings of joy--they are expressed in the vehicle of language. They also can be expressed in the vehicle of music, for that matter (using music as a language or vehicle) to communicate the emotion that is in your heart.
    No, anger doesn't exist just in the heart. It exists in the language it is being expressed in, and then ultimately it may be expressed in a knife that one holds, or a gun that one pulls the trigger with. Both Jesus and John compared anger with murder. Why? Because the anger in the heart led to the murder with the hand.
    Paul teaches to yeild ALL your members as instruments of righteousness unto righteousness. He wasn't just speaking of your heart, but all the members of your body.
    You have already equated music to a language, so lets use language as an example. Everything that language can do music can do. Correct?

    I watch a comedy show--all in English. It "makes" me laugh. I also have seen some musicians that are comedians. By their music they evoke laughter in others.

    I know people who use angry words. They are crude, use vulgar speech and deliberately try to evoke anger in people that they meet. There is a certain teen-ager down the street who tries to anger my daughter in a similar way--being crude when she is around or walking past that way. The depravity of the human heart knows no bounds.
    The same angry and depravity can be expressed in music. Music is not totally amoral. It is simply the vehicle of the depraved emotions of mankind. It is a langauge used either for good or for bad. Some of it is deliberately used for bad.

    Both language and music will affect your emotions whether you want them to or not. If they affect your emotions, they will in some cases affect the way you act, even causing you to sin. Don't say it won't. You are not perfect; not God. You do sin. We all do.
    DHK
     
  12. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    DHK, you accused me of carnality and in essence ungodliness. I see nothing different in your post here. My posts are not emotional at all. See how me and Aaron have carried on for quite some time without accusations? That's because we have been calm and rational. You however are not.

    Not only that, you've expanded your misunderstanding of everything I've said to ten times the length. Speak to me no more. I've already responded to everything you've said.
     
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    Throughout your previous posts you made a number of false allegations against me which I can point out to you if you wish. I deliberately ignored them. Now you again make another false allegation that I have accused you of being carnal. When you are going to accuse me (or anyone else for that matter) of anything like that put in quotes or you will be accused of slander. In a court of law you could be sued for such. I want you to quote me where I accused you of being carnal in the last post. If not retract your statement. And while your at it you might want to retract a few other false statements that you have made about me as well. Slander is sin. Do you want me to start editing your posts for such unwarranted statements?

    Note: There is a big difference between calling someone's reaction emotional, and carnal. I may have said you reacted emotionally, which almost everyone does. But I did not say carnal.
    DHK
     
  14. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    20,253
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Maybe not immediately, but think of it a different way. As vinegar upon natron (bicarbonate of soda). If you have a heavy heart and someone comes along singing happy songs to you, you're going to blow up.

    If they sing mournful songs, it will push you over the edge emotionally.

    And there's nothing you can do about it.
     
  15. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    You have got to be kidding me. What new kind of low do you wish to sink our exchange to? This is what I am referring to:

    Your very first contribution to this entire thread starts by accusing me of flesh serving motivation.

    I retract nothing. This behaviour is typical for you. I have pointed it out several times and I'm prepared to defend any incident you wish to contest.

    I want you to stop provoking people and acting as if you've committed no offense.


    The reason you save your reconciliation for a possible misunderstanding on my part for last is because you know I am right. Now knock it off.
     
  16. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    Maybe not immediately, but think of it a different way. As vinegar upon natron (bicarbonate of soda). If you have a heavy heart and someone comes along singing happy songs to you, you're going to blow up.</font>[/QUOTE]There is no reason to suggest that this single verse establishes some sort of universal axiom about the ability of music to control our hearts or minds or whatever. Is that really the lesson you gather from it?

    In the verse you cited, your interpretation suggests that a heavy heart will always react violently to song. Here we have a specific incident where a particular action under certain circumstances will lead to a particular result. Now you wish to extrapolate that all music will affect all people under all circumstances. I just don't see how your reasoning follows, and I have a harder time reconciling your statement with my own personal experience.
     
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    OK Travelsong,
    I want you to go back and read my posts (the previous ones that I have backed up with Scripture and plenty of examples that have refuted your position). All that you have done is answer with slurs and innuendos which are not acceptable on BB. Instead of addressing the actual conversation and debate here are some of your answers. You be the judge.
    false allegation.
    Your have no buisiness calling me or anyone else such names, nor judging who should be in a place of authority or not. It is precisely such comments like this that could get you in trouble (as being suspended or banned).
    No, I did not. False allegations are not permitted.
    I don't believe my behaviour is irrational. If anything the posting of these answers of yours to my responses to you would prove otherwise.
    This is blatantly false. You have ignored some of the most pertinent points that I have made in this debate, and apparently deliberately so. I don't believe you have an answer for them, and thus you reply with innuendo and emotionally charged accusations such as the above.
    Perhaps there was a possibility of you misunderstanding my post. Did you take that into consideration? Did you ask for clarification?
    This behaviour is typical for you. I have pointed
    I am not the one provoking here. Look and examine your own posts. Why don't you answer the posts that I have given you. Why the emotionally charged accusations. As I have pointed out to you, is it not ironic that just as you equate music to language you answer in an angry emotional way to me, just as music can be angry and emotional. That style of music is the style of music that is unacceptable in worship even though it is the CCM crowd that adamantly assserts that any style of music can be used in worship. Ironic isn't it?
    I know you are not right. Emotionally charged accusations are never right. If you can't deal with a debate in a reational and intellectual level how can you make a blind assertion that you are right. You have not even taken the time to debate the issue.
    DHK
     
  18. OCC

    OCC Guest

    Boy DHK is slick...

    my .02 worth opinion is that nobody debate with him. It should be a cardinal rule that noboy debate with moderators on this forum. I have learned that myself...hence I am not actually going to participate in this debate.

    Cheers...
     
  19. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    He's not slick. No matter how hard he tries to deny it his actions are obvious to anyone who is literate.
     
  20. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    Dr. Bob posted:

    Please inform your moderators that they are just as accountable as everyone else. There is no excuse for accusing people of sin and not even supporting those allegations. There have been numerous complaints about DHK in the past and every time it leads to the same result. Another moderator comes in and finds no fault on his part. This must stop.

    If you want healthy debate to flourish then keep these forums in the arena of ideas. We are here to resolve and understand our differences of opinion, not to find sin wherever we have a disagreement.
     
Loading...