What is our obligation as Christians

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by freeatlast, Sep 24, 2011.

  1. freeatlast

    freeatlast
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    We live in a country that values our freedoms and rights, perhaps too much, but that is another discussion. We are not a theocracy, even though we do put "in God we trust" on our money and certain government entities and claim that we were founded on Christian principles.

    We are a government of the people, for the people, and by the people. At the same time we have a great number, most in fact, that have no relationship with God or holds to His standards.

    Should Christians seek to impose the moral standards of God on the whole nation or should we just impose them on ourselves and not try and legislate morality as some claim that morality cannot be legislated? What is our responsibility towards God in this area? Would the legislating of the moral standards of God tend to make a nation evil or one that showed it stood for God given standards. What are your thoughts?
     
    #1 freeatlast, Sep 24, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2011
  2. canadyjd

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    There are some moral standards of God that are common to mankind and are readily accepted even by unbelievers. Most people agree it's wrong to steal from another or kill the innocent, though the definitions vary of who is "innocent" and what consititutes "stealing".

    Any attempt, however, to identify, list, and implement by government legislation the entirety of God's moral law is doomed to failure.

    Just look at the Christians on the BB. We can't agree what the complete "moral standards of God" are. There are some who would live under the O.T. Law given to Israel. Most Christians would reject that idea, IMHO. Which Christians get to decide which "moral standards of God" are to be implemented and which aren't?

    Look at history. Every time a secular nation attempted to impose God's laws the end result was bias, inequality and injustice to its people.

    So, to answer your question directly, No. Christians should not attempt to impose God's moral standards on all people through a secular government or a Theocracy.
    I find no command in scripture to use a secular government (or a Theocracy) to impose God's Laws on Christians, much less unbelievers. Therefore, imho, we have no responsibility towards God in this area since He has not commanded it.
    Whether it would make the nation "more evil" or not, I cannot say.

    It would, however, expose the futility of attempting to legislate what can only be accomplished by a transformation of the heart by the power of God.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  3. freeatlast

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    [SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]There in lies the error. God's moral standards was never intended to legislate or transform the heart any more then the death penalty was give to change the heart. If God's standards under the law were given to receive blessings or cursing's why should anyone believe those who do not support the same will not receive any less?

    Moral laws for a nation are for the good of the nation, not to change hearts. If we claim to be under God as a nation then how is there not hypocrisy if Christians do not want to be governed through the government by His moral standards? If God's moral standards are good then it would seem that those who claim to follow Him would want all He has given in this area of morality.

    As I said before. I can only think of one reason why anyone who claims to be a Christian and claims that God's moral laws are good and reject having them legislated is because they really do not want to be under the authority of of God and God gave the government. It really is not about imposing something evil, harsh, or ungodly on anyone. It is about Christians holding the same standards as the Lord that they they claim to follow and seeking to have them carried out in ones own country.

    I can understand the point of standing against God's moral laws for the government if someone can show that His moral standings if legistated are somehow evil, or cause harm, but to claim they are good and that they are not good for government at the same time is a double standard.

    [SIZE=+0]I think if we are really honest what really is happening is we are exposing our (we Christian's) rebellious hearts against God's standards. We just do not want His ways to be our ways at least in the judicial manner. I am afraid that our rights and freedoms have become a greater love then our love for His righteousness. To live in a country so blessed as we have been, even though it is quickly being removed, and to stand against or not support our nation's laws holding the same moral desire and standards that God has for a people is to bring condemnation on ourselves.
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  4. Ruiz

    Ruiz
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    Free,

    Once again, I have answered this question. The State is distinct from the Church and not all moral standards should be made illegal.

    You have stated you think we should criminalize two 15 year olds for having premarital sex or petting. I agree it is immoral, I disagree it should be criminalized.

    You seem to think other religions should be criminalized, I believe they are immoral but should not be criminalized.

    You say coveting is not immoral, but offer no basis for that.

    I continue to say, not all things immoral should be illegal. I would guess the majority of people agree with this basic principle.

    My next principle is that private and personal immoral people have the right to private and personal immorality under law. Thus, the two people who engage in pre-marital sex should not be made a criminal. However, under the government of the church and family, they may enact appropriate measures for such actions in accordance to their dictates in Scripture.

    Lying is immoral, but not all lying should be criminalized (though some may like in the case of false advertisement).

    You seem to believe all moral law should be criminalized.
     
  5. JesusFan

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    Where is the biblical scriptures t show that we ARE indeed still under the Old Covenant law, rules, regulations?
     
  6. freeatlast

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    I do agree that most people are in your court, but I am not so sure that is a plus.
     
  7. JesusFan

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    Most imprtant fact is that Jesus is on his side in this discussion!
     
  8. canadyjd

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    Again, I find no command in scripture to use a secular government (or a Theocracy) to impose God's Laws on Christians, much less unbelievers. There in lies the error of your thinking.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]
    As I said before, there is no command in scripture to use a government (secular or theocracy) to impose God's moral law on Christians or unbelievers. If God had desired what you would impose, then God would have mentioned it when He gave us His Word.
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    It is about forcing people to believe just as you believe and punishing them if they don't. Let's leave that to the Muslims.[/SIZE]
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    [SIZE=+0]You haven't shown from scripture that using a secular government in such a way is part of God's standards. [/SIZE]

    peace to you:praying:
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  9. Ruiz

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    I never said we were. In fact that is my point. Free at last said we should still hold to the moral law as a part of our judicial law today. I disagree.
     
  10. Ruiz

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    I think most throughout history are in my court. Baptists have traditionally been in my court. Thus, to stereotype it as being "against God" is not a good argument.

    Could you tell me how you differentiate between judicial law of lying? Where in Scripture do you see that differentiation? How do you differentiate the 9th commandment from the 8th commandment? Why would you divide one as allowing it to be legislated and the other not to be legislated? Would you not agree that no where is the 10 commandments divided in such a way in Scripture?
     
  11. freeatlast

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    The judicial sentence for stealing was repayment and that varied depending on certain things, for murder it was the death penalty.Tell me what the judicial sentence was for lying.

     
  12. Ruiz

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    Look it up DT 19:16-19, this is an exposition of the 10 commandments and gives a judicial punishment. There are other places where lying is seen as having ramifications and judgment, stuff as simple as gossip was considered under this idea. However, you need to show me why you differentiate between parts of the 10 commandments and other parts where the Bible never makes such differentiation. Would you also be for laws on the Sabbath, laws on making graven images, taking the Lord's name in vain, worshipping other gods, and not honoring your father and mother? All these had severe consequences noted in the Bible. Paul links coveting in Ephesians 5 on par with sexual immorality, saying "it should not be named among you."

    But enough of these asking questions. I once again ask you, what differentiates one of the 10 commandments from the others? You have not answered that question.
     
  13. freeatlast

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    [SIZE=+0]You have not shown me what I asked as you know there was no judicial punishment for a lie. The Sabbath is not a moral issue or worshipping idols. You are trying to support your false view with false suggestions. The moral commands should be pushed by Christians for the government judicial system.[/SIZE]
    As to your question on what the difference is some of God's commands deals with moral issues and some do not.
     
  14. Ruiz

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    The Sabbath is a moral issue. All the 10 commandments are moral issues. At least, from the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus seemed to think they were moral issues, and I am not going to argue with Jesus. The entire point of the Sermon was an exposition of the law, and relating each in a moral manner to show our sinfulness and the sinfulness of those around us.

    Did you look up DT 19? That shows one punishment for lying.

    Finally, how do you know the difference in what is moral and what is not moral?
     
  15. freeatlast

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    That is not for general lying. That is for falsely testifying which we already have in our courts today so it is none responsive. Yes that should be part of our system which it is as all moral laws should be and with the same punishment as given by the Lord.
     
  16. Ruiz

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    It is a punishment for lying. The point is, we both differentiate and lying is criminalized. It meets your definition.

    However, you have not shown why something should be considered "moral" and not. Jesus believed all ten were treated the same in the Sermon on the Mount. I can't argue with Jesus.
     
  17. freeatlast

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    Morality (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior") is the sense that differentiates among intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are good (or right) and bad (or wrong). A moral code is a system of morality (for example, according to a particular philosophy, religion, culture, etc.) and a moral is any one practice or teaching within a moral code. Immorality is the active opposition to morality, while amorality is variously defined as an unawareness of, indifference toward, or disbelief in any set of moral standards or principles.

    I would and do stand for every law that God gave to govern man in regards to his character and behavior should be in our law with the same punishments for breaking those laws. That is why I do not believe in putting people in prison, but I do believe in the death penalty.
     
  18. Ruiz

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    I don't think we have much more we can say, but let's define morality in the theological framework, not the secular. Morality is based upon Holiness which is based upon standing before God. Morality is deadly as there is none without the Gospel.
     
  19. freeatlast

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    No that is incorrect. Men can exhibit moral standards even without being saved as long as those standards are based on the standards of God. My contention is thta anyone who claims to be a Christian should seek to have the same moral laws as God does for governing the nation.
     
  20. Ruiz

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    That is called moralism, and moralism is deadly. I reject moralism for the Gospel because that is the New Testament example. Yes, non-Christians can be good people externally, but moralism is not helpful. They don't need a government, they need the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They don't need external controls of every part of their life, they need a church who faithfully preaches the Gospel.
     

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