What is Pre-Trib?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by hawg_427, Aug 23, 2006.

  1. hawg_427

    hawg_427
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    I am a new Christian and I am confused to this Pre-Trib, Post-Trib theory. Could someone explain this in fairly simple terms. Thanks. :thumbs:
     
  2. Marcia

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    I can relate! :smilewinkgrin:

    When I was a new believer, I heard terms like "Pre-Trib" and "Post-Trib" and other terms and I had no inkling what people were talking about!

    Pre-Trib is the view that Jesus will come back for the church before the 7 yr. tribulation (this is called the rapture). Post-Trib is the view that believers will go through the tribulation and then Jesus will come back to take the believers.

    There is also a view called Mid-Trib which is Jesus coming for the church (the believers) in the middle of the Tribulation, but this view is not as popular as Pre-Trib.

    I don't know any Post-Trib believers, but they are out there. There was one on the BB but I haven't seen him post lately.

    Then there are those who don't agree with any of these 3 views! In fact, a lot here on the BB don't agree with these views. Personally, I lean toward Pre-Trib (I haven't had a chance to really study it yet).

    I suggest you get a book like The Last Days Handbook which explains some different endtime views. But I also suggest you study the OT and NT first and leave the endtimes stuff until later, since it's built on other parts of the Bible, imo.

    I've been a believer 15 yrs. and still have not had time to study this issue in depth. Get other parts of the Bible under your belt first.
     
  3. canadyjd

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    I am a post-triber, which is the only understanding of the rapture that is consistent with scripture.:smilewinkgrin:

    Welcome to the BB.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  4. skypair

    skypair
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    hawg,

    Simplest I can think of is this -- Israel is looking for a postribulation resurrection to the earth into Messiah's kingdom which is mistaken by many in the church for the rapture. In fact, it IS the most obvious resurrection in scripture because the real rapture is made a "mystery" to Israel and unbelievers by God Himself (1Cor 15:51).

    Here are some references to the postrib "resurrection of the just" for the OT saints: Job 14:13-17, 19:25-28, Psa 50:3-5, Dan 12:2, 12:11-13, Ezek 37:12-14, Isa 26:19-21

    The church is looking for a pretribulational resurrection to heaven. This is promised in Rev 3:10 (parallels Luke 21:35-36), Rev 4:1 (in type per John 21:22), 2Thes 1:5-6, 2Thes 2:5-8, Mt 25:1-13 (the "foolish virgins" being "left behind" to "go and buy," re: left behind virgin Laodicea, Rev 3:18), John 14:1-4.

    Study these -- don't take my word for it. DO take God's!

    skypair
     
  5. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller
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    Pre-Trib

    hawg and skypair,

    Those who present the "Pre-Trib" Rapture view fail to explain Scriptures that point to the "Post-Trib" Resurrection and Rapture of all the Saints.

    Quote from skypair:
    _____________________________________________________________
    The church is looking for a pretribulational resurrection to heaven. This is promised in Rev 3:10 (parallel Luke 21:35-36), 2Thes 1:5-6.
    _____________________________________________________________

    These verses present a Post-Trib Rapture! Jesus described the Hour of Trial (Rev.3:10) "coming on all the inhabitants on all the face of all the earth" in the very parallel given, i.e., Luke 21:35-36. He clearly stated
    this will happen after men see Signs in the sun, moon and stars (vs.25),
    and then see the Son of Man appear on a cloud with power and great glory (vs.27). Rev.3:11 refers to the DAY and HOUR of the 2nd coming!

    "That Day", Jesus said, "will come suddenly, like a snare," and that they
    (who know their redemption and kingdom are near; vs.28,31) should
    "look up, stand erect, and pray to escape all these things and to be able to stand before the Son of Man". Vs.36. I take this to be the Jews who
    realize, by these signs, that the One they see coming is their Messiah!!

    My friends, in order to even assume that Jesus is coming twice, once to
    rapture Pre-Trib saints and later to resurrect TRIBULATION Saints, it is
    necessary to deny, in the passage above; 2 Thess.1:5-10, that Paul taught a Post-Trib Rapture and was in agreement with what Jesus taught.
    skypair omits verses 7-10 that tell us WHEN we will be delivered from tribulation:

    1. "On the day Christ is revealed with His holy angels from heaven in flaming fire to take vengeance on the unbelievers, He will come to be glorified in the saints and be admired by ALL who believe on that Day"
    The New King James Version and NIV put "on that day" at the beginning of
    verse 10 while the KJV originally put "on that day" at the end of vs.10.

    2. In I Thess.4:13-14, Paul had already taught that "God will bring the souls of those that sleep in Jesus WITH HIM". The souls of TRIBULATION Martyrs in heaven are included among those who "die in the Lord". Therefore, they must accompany Jesus when He comes to resurrect the dead and also to catch up all who survive to the End. Rev.14:12-13. Tribulation Martyrs will take part in the First Resurrection of Rev.20:4-6.

    3. Jesus taught that "He will raise up every/all believers on the last day;
    and that He will gather the elect from earth to heaven in the days after the great tribulation". John 6:38-40,44,54; Mark 13:24,27.

    Paul agrees with Jesus: The resurrection includes all those who sleep in Jesus and He will be glorified in them on the same DAY He comes to
    destroy unbelievers and be ADMIRED by *ALL Believers*! 2 Thess.1:10.

    In order to assume two different DAYS for the First Resurrection, it is necessary to change the DAY of the Lord, FROM a single Day on which He comes from heaven and glorifies the saints, TO a period of seven years and call that period the DAY of the Lord! Why? Because the Resurrection and Rapture of those who "survive to the End" must ALL meet Jesus at the Synagogue (Noun; 2 Thess.2:1) in the Sky to "ADMIRE JESUS" and be made His BRIDE!

    The Lamb's Wedding is the last of SEVEN things announced in the Book of Revelation as "having come" ON THAT SINGLE LAST DAY. It is announced just before He descends from heaven in Rev.19:7-11. This occurs on day DAY the Two Prophets arise to heaven. Rev.11:7-11. There are three stages to the Resurrection of Believers on the Last Day; but ALL Believers must rise up to meet Jesus ON THAT SAME "LAST DAY"!
    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:
     
    #5 Mel Miller, Aug 24, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 24, 2006
  6. Marcia

    Marcia
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    Hawg, see what I mean?

    That's why it's better to get grounded in other areas before you tackle this one. There are many views and explanations and debates and disagreements on the endtimes stuff!

    I am sure that we have not clarified this for Hawg - he just asked for a simple explanation, not why one view is right vs. the other views.
     
  7. skypair

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    Marcia,

    BOTH views are right for the people to whom they were addressed. :thumbs: As was pointed out to me the other day, there are still some in the world who are under the OT covenant, the law. For them, the postrib is the only hope.

    Then there are those of us who are under grace. For us -- we've "passed the test" already, Rev 3:10! It's on to glory for us!!

    skypair
     
  8. Revmitchell

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    Another good book on this is "Things to come" by Dwight Pentacost. But stay way from the "Kingdom theology" it is heresy.
     
  9. npetreley

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    I don't recommend "Things to come", myself. It's a thick book, it's used by many colleges, but IMO, although he appears to look at the issues from every perspective, I believe he twists scripture left and right to reach his desired conclusion. In one way, it's worth reading because it's so comprehensive. But read it with your Bible open, and ask questions whenever you read an argument by Pentacost that doesn't seem to ring true or quite match scripture.

    Here's is a simple description (simple as possible, given the complexity of the topic) in layman's terms. It doesn't cover every variant, but I think this should give you the basics:

    Pre-trib view: It is based on the prophecy in Daniel that involves 70 weeks of years (70 * 7 years). The pre-trib view (as well as most other views) presumes that only 69 weeks of years of the prophecy have been fulfilled, after which there is a gap of unknown length. Someday, the 70th week will begin. Pre-tribbers call this 70th week the 7 year tribulation period. Saints will be raptured (taken out of this world, and disappear from the earth) just before (or just as) this 7 year tribulation period begins. In the middle of the week (3 1/2 years later), the antichrist will be revealed, after which there will be a 3 1/2 year great tribulation. Roughly 3 1/2 years later (at the end of the 7 year tribulation period), Jesus will return in glory.

    Mid-trib view: Same basic premise as above, only the saints will be raptured just before (or just as) the antichrist is revealed in the middle of the 70th week.

    Post-trib view: Basically the same scenario as above, only the saints will be raptured just before (or just as) Jesus returns at the end of the great tribulation, which is the end of the so-called 7 year tribulation period.

    Pre-wrath view: The 3 1/2 year great tribulation period will not actually last 3 1/2 years. It is cut short for the sake of the elect. Nobody knows how much it will be cut short, therefore nobody knows exactly when Jesus will return. Immediately after it is cut short (which ends the great tribulation), Jesus returns in glory. One of the first things He does is rapture the saints out of the world before He pours out His wrath upon the wicked.

    The above leaves out a lot of details, and it doesn't account for variations in the way people differ about all these views, but I think that about sums up the most popular views.
     
    #9 npetreley, Aug 25, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 25, 2006
  10. hawg_427

    hawg_427
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    Thanks Brothers & Sisters

    Thanks to everyone to try and explain the pre-trib theory. I think I will take one persons advice and try and explore the other parts of the Bible first before trying to understand this. Hey, I'm going to Heaven, that'd all that matters to me anyway.
     
  11. Mel Miller

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    Pre-Trib

    Marcia and skypair,

    Quote from Marcia:
    _____________________________________________________________
    I am sure that we have not clarified this for Hawg - he just asked for a simple explanation, not why one view is right vs. the other views.
    _____________________________________________________________

     
  12. Ed Edwards

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    The Thessalonians were familiar with
    this saying of Jesus which we now find
    recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

    But he that shall endure unto
    the end, the same shall be saved.


    But some said of their friend "He got
    sick and died before Jesus came to
    get him, poor soul."

    Paul addresses this problem in
    a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
    one of the most comforting passages in the
    Bible.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning those who have fallen
    asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
    have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
    rose again, even so God will bring with Him
    those who sleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
    that we who are alive and remain until
    the coming of the Lord will by no means
    precede those who are asleep
    .
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend
    from heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
    And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain
    shall be caught up (raptured)
    together with them in the clouds to meet
    the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
    always be with the Lord
    .
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
    5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
    brethren, you have no need that I should
    write to you.
    2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
    in the night
    .
    3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
    then sudden destruction comes upon them,
    as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
    And they shall not escape.
    4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
    so that this Day should overtake
    you as a thief.
    5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
    We are not of the night nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
    and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
    8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
    putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
    and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
    9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation through our
    Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
    we should live together with Him
    .
    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
    one another
    , just as you also are doing.

    Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
    had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
    in a second letter:

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

    1 Now, brethren, concerning
    the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    and our gathering together to Him,
    we ask you
    ,
    2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
    either by spirit or by word or by letter,
    as if from us, as though the day of Christ
    had come
    .
    3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
    for that Day will not come unless
    the falling away comes first,
    and the man of sin
    is revealed, the son of perdition,

    The falling away that comes first
    is the Rapture!
    Then the man of sin is revealed, the
    antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
    begins.

    While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
    English versions before the KJV used a
    form of "departure" - again, the idea of
    someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
    Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
    not come, except there come a departing first, and that
    that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,


    There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
    the rapture.
    Here are some things that could happen
    before the rapture but they do NOT
    have to happen.

    1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
    2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
    (the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
    Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
    Tribulation period)
    3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
    on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
    the Dome of the Rock.

    But again, these things do not HAVE
    TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
    happen after the rapture; they could happen
    before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
    HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
    rapture.
     
    #12 Ed Edwards, Aug 26, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 26, 2006
  13. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller
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    Pre-Trib

    Ed Edwards,

    What is the "Problem" to which you refer? How does your explanation point to a so-called "pretribulation rapture"?

    Quote:
    _____________________________________________________________
    But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    But some said of their friend "He got sick and died before Jesus came to
    get him, poor soul."

    Paul addresses this problem in a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11, one of the most comforting passages in the
    Bible.
    ____________________________________________________________
    Mel Miller www.lastay.net :love2:
     
  14. skypair

    skypair
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    How are these passages connected (besides in your mind)?

    Already you err. The "snares" in Luke and the "testings" in Rev 3 are what the true church "escapes" and is "kept out of.

    The passage reads "and you rest with us while..." How is anyone going to "rest" on the earth with Paul?? And loon a little earlier -- "it is righteous of God that you be counted worthy of the kingdom of God [rapture to heaven]..." and to "recompense itrh tribultation those who trouble you." I find pretrib stated here.

    I'd love to stay and chat but gotta go.

    skypair
     
  15. Ed Edwards

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    Ed Edwards:
    _________________________________________________
    But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    But some said of their friend "He got sick and died before Jesus came to
    get him, poor soul."

    Paul addresses this problem in a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11, one of the most comforting passages in the
    Bible.
    ________________________________________________

    Mel Miller: //What is the "Problem" to which you refer?//

    problem = the idea that if one dies before Jesus comes,
    he has not 'endured to the end'. Paul is clear that if one dies
    in Christ before Christ comes, he will be resurrected right
    before the survivers are raptured.
     
  16. Mel Miller

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    Pre-Trib

    ____________________________________________________________
    I agreed with YOU from the start that Rev.3:10 and Luke 21:34-35 are "connected"!!!!!

    I also agree with you that the true Church will escape and be KEPT OUT
    of the testings of Rev.3:10 and Luke 24:34-35 ... because both refer to the DAY Christ comes and men see Him appear on a cloud on the DAY He "raises up every believer and gathers all the elect from earth and sends the angels to gather us from all extremities of the heavens to meet Him at the Synagogue" in the Sky. John 6:38-40; Mark 13:27; 2 Th.2:1.

    But how can you interpret the DAY of deliverance from tribulation in I Thess.1:7 as referring to a Pre-Trib rapture RATHER than to the DAY WHEN the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven to TAKE VENGEANCE on those who know not God ...

    AND who are glorified (together with Paul who also suffered tribulation and martyrdom) ON THE DAY Jesus comes to be glorified in ALL who believe?!

    I see no reason for you to conclude that Christ will be glorified only in the PRE-TRIBULATION Saints on that DAY! Do you propose that TRIBULATION Saints who suffer Tribulation and even Martyrdom for Christ will NOT be included among those in whom Christ is glorified ON THAT DAY?
    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:
     
  17. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller
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    Pre-Trib

    ____________________________________________________________

    My friend, is it therefore your contention that only PRE-TRIB saints who endure to the End will be saved? How about those who prove they "love not their life unto death" during the great tribulation? Will they also be
    resurrected right before those who "endure to the End are caught up to meet the Lord in the air".

    If so, then this is also the "comfort" for ALL those who "endure" during "the days after the great tribulation" until Christ comes to rescue them!

    If not, then your vision of the "comfort" given by Paul is discriminatory
    and fails to be an encouragement for Trib-Saints who "endure to the End"! I'm thinking you have created TWO separate groups of Saints rather than
    acknowledging that Martyred Saints will "serve God in heaven 1000 years" while those who "overcome to the End will reign on earth over the nations with a rod of iron". Rev.3:10-12; Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4-6; Rev.2:25-27.
    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:
     
  18. James_Newman

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    I believe the reason there is evidence for a pre-trib rapture and a post-trib rapture, and even a mid-trib rapture, may be because they are all true. The problem is that the pre-trib rapture is conditional. Christians are told to watch and pray that they may be accounted worthy to escape the tribulation. Many Christians will probably end up going through at least part of the tribulation, to 'ripen' in the heat. Those taken before the tribulation will be firstfruits, with the final harvest coming at the end.
     
  19. Ed Edwards

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    Mel Miller: //My friend, is it therefore your contention that only PRE-TRIB saints who endure to the End will be saved? How about those who prove they "love not their life unto death" during the great tribulation? Will they also be
    resurrected right before those who "endure to the End are caught up to meet the Lord in the air".//

    I do not limit God to one and only one general Resurrection.
    Check the part about "The Gleanings" here:

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    \o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

    \o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

    Five Resurrections
    Found in the Holy Bible
    Compared and Contrasted

    The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

    Definitions:

    New Testament: God's contract on goy
    Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
    Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
    Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
    Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
    --Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
    --Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
    --Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
    Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
    goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
    Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

    How to get on God's list:

    Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
    shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
    believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
    the dead, thou shalt be saved.



    1. Resurrection of Jesus
    WHO: Jesus
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
    resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
    are possible
    References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


    2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
    WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
    those who believed in God's Messiah
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

    3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
    WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
    of the Old Testament Saints
    WHEN: Some date after 3 Sept 2005;
    at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
    the Tribulation
    WHERE: Worldwide
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
    this resurrection is followed in but a
    moment by the translation of the living
    saints into a glorified heavenly body like
    that of Jesus
    References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

    4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
    WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
    who reject the Mark of the Beast
    WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
    beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
    References: Revelation 20:4-6,

    5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
    WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
    WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
    at the beginning of eternity
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: i don't know, God does
    HOW: i don't know, God does
    WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
    References: Revelation 20:12-15

    NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
    resurrections above
    does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
    is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
    by his revelation to us or
    by our understaning of His revelation to us.
    For example: Two Witnesses shall
    be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

    There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
    for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
    (numbered here as above):

    2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

    3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

    4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

    5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

    Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
    of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
    resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
    of the unjust).

    The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
    resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
    Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
    in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
    cleary notes that the just are raised one day
    (a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

    CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
    assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
    sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

    May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

    Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
    by a rapture of living saints.


    --compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque
     
  20. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller
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    Incurable Jesus Phreaque:

    You have failed to give me any sense of "comfort" for Trib-Survivors:

    I repeat:
    Your vision of the "comfort" given by Paul is discriminatory and fails to be an encouragement for Trib-Saints who "endure to the End"! I'm thinking you have created TWO separate groups of Saints rather than
    acknowledging that Martyred Saints will "serve God in heaven 1000 years" while those who "overcome to the End will reign on earth over the nations with a rod of iron". Rev.3:10-12; Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4-6; Rev.2:25-27.

    I see no point in listing "five resurrections" when the only "appointed time for judging and rewarding the prophets and saints and all who fear God, both small and great" will not occur until the 7th Trumpet sounds that
    God's wrath has come. There is no "wrath" to escape until the LAST TRUMP sounds for Christ's Coronation on the Day He comes to destroy
    the wicked and deliver us from tribulation and be glorified in ALL who believe ON THAT DAY". Rev.11:15-18; 2 Thess.1:10.
    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:
     

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