What is regeneration or new birth?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Sep 18, 2012.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    I think most of us will agree it is an INTERNAL event produced by the power of God.

    We will not all agree in defining what it is or how it is obtained.

    At this point I will not attempt to prove what I believe it is but I will simply state what I believe and look at your responses:

    A. General obvious definition:

    It is the exact reversal of the descriptive characteristics of the unregenerated condition.

    B. Specific definition:

    It is the creation of a new inward nature (new heart) that did not come by natural birth but by the power of God. It is effected by immediate and direct revelation of God in the face of Jesus Christ as revealed in the gospel mixed with faith that cleanses the conscience from the guilt of sin and produces inward peace with God.
     
  2. savedbymercy

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    Technically the Regeneration is a Noun, the Word is used Twice in scripture, both as a Noun Matt 19:28; Titus 3:5. New Birth is something that happens to individuals.

    The Regeneration is in Christ, His being enthroned in Heavenly Places after His Resurrection and Ascension and now Being seated at the Right hand of the Father making His enemies His footstool. The New Birth is that which each member of His Body receives after being raised up together with Him and also seated together with Him in Heavenly Places Eph 2:5-6

    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

    6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


    And each member of His Body receives a New Birth or are begotten again by or because His Resurrection 1 Pet 1:3

    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    This begotten us again is the greek anagennaō and means:


    to produce again, be born again, born anew

    2) metaph. to have one's mind changed so that he lives a new life and one conformed to the will of God

    This New Birth comes from above where Jesus and we sit together in the heavenlies.

    And so Jesus also calls it being born from above Jn 3:3

    3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    The word above is the greek word anothen:

    from above, from a higher place

    The higher place or the from above is the Heavenlies Eph 2:6 which is the Regeneration where Christ sits on His Throne of Glory !

    So the New Birth comes from being in the Regeneration, with Christ Eph 2:6

    Our New Birth here in time is proof, evidence of our Union with Christ when He died and was raised from the Dead !
     
  3. The Biblicist

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    However, its synomyms are verbs in John 3:3,5,6,7, etc. They are found in the "passive" voice that demonstrates the person is not the one acting or participating in the action but it is God alone (Jn. 1:13;James 1:18).

    That is patently false! You have jerked this text out of its proper context and contrary to the overall Biblical context. Divine quickening has occurred in time according to verse 1 because they were PREVIOUSLY "dead" in sins and that precedes the statement in verse 5 about being seated in heavenly places as their CURRENT position due to quickening.

    Furthermore, Ephesians 2:10 says quickening is the work of God whereby we are "created in Christ UNTO good works" and therefore it occurred in time at the point of regeneration as previous to regeneration they could do no "good works." Prior to regeneration or being "created in Christ" they were "ALIENATED from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18) outside of SPIRITUAL UNION as God is life and to be alienated is to be separated SPIRITUALLY and so they were not spiritually "in Christ" previous to regeneration.

    Regeneration "in Christ" occurred "when we were dead in sins" not before the world began:

    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

    6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

    Regeneration and justification are in a cause and effect relationship but are inseparable in time as Epheisans 4:18 proves. To be unregenerate is to be separated from the life God THROUGH IGNORANCE and without UNDERSTANDING and in mental BLINDNESS:

    Eph. 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

    Regeneration is the reversal of this condition and thus is inseparable from (1) Enlightened understanding; (2) union with the life of God; (3) a seeing/perceiving heart.

    Regeneration is revelation of God in the person of Jesus Christ (Gal. 1:15-16a; 2 Cor. 4:6; Mt. 16:17) that removes ignorance in the mind, lack of understanding and lack of heart perception of the gospel.

    The resurrection of Christ is the basis for regeneration. However, it is patently false to suggest or demand that we were regenerated at the time of his resurrection. Ephesians 2:1 and Epheisans 2:5 demands regeneration took place "when we were dead in sins" not when Christ rose from the grave or ascended into heaven.

    However, the resurrection justifies our salvation because it demonstrates, declares that Christ's death paid the penalty of sin in full (death) in our place or else he would still be in the grave a prisoner of death. The power of the resurrection is the power for regeneration.

    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,



    Absolutely false and a complete perversion of these scriptures. Regeneration and new birth are one and the same. The New birth does NOT come from "being in regeneration" but IS regeneration.

    Second, our new birth here is NOT proof of our spirituall union with Christ but is the union established by the Spirit of God with Christ spiritually as the unregenerated state is the spiritual condition of ALIENATION from the life of God (Eph. 4:18).

    The only previous union the elect have with Christ prior to new birth/regeneration is by divine PURPOSE (Eph. 1:4) and by Divine PROVISION.

    Again you are teaching the idiotic and anti-biblical irrational doctrine that Divine purpose equals fulfillment when the Scriptures say "I have purposed it, I WILL DO it."

    Again, Christ's redemptive work provided the LEGAL BASIS for atonement/reconciliation/justification but it did not provide the APPLICATION of atonement/reconciliation/justification as that is the work of the Holy Spirit.
     
  4. The Biblicist

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    SBM tries to derail every thread by his theological trash and it is trash. Isaiah 46:11 thoroughly repudiates his whole system of trash and he has NEVER been able to respond to that text and NEVER has attempted to respond to it but IGNORES it and repeats his devilish trash:

    Isa. 46:11 ....yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

    This text thoroughly repudiates SBM's whole system of soteriology in one clear statement. For SBM's doctrine of saved before saved, justified before justified, regenerated before new birth, etc. to be true the above text would have to say this:

    yea, I have spoken it, I HAVE ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED IT; I have purposed it, I HAVE ALREADY DONE IT.

    However, that would be an IRRATIONAL and FOOLISH oxymoronic statement because it would thoroughly redefine "purpose" as something already fulfilled instead of something to be yet fulfilled.

    Just because God's purpose will come to pass does not mean they have already come to pass and yet that is SBM's logic.

    He cannot respond to this text or this argument soooooooo, he simply reposts his disproven posts and acts like the scriptures never said this and the argument never existed.

    Funny thing is that he always demands others to answer his arguments but he is a hypocrit because he will not and never has responded to this text or argument although I have placed in his face over and over and over again.

    SGM either put up or shut up! Either put up or never demand anyone else has to respond to your arguments!


     
    #4 The Biblicist, Sep 18, 2012
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  5. savedbymercy

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    the bib

    Thats no problem since New Birth comes from the Regeneration where Christ sits above !


    No its not false, The Regeneration is where Christ sits on His Throne of Glory Matt 19:28

    28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    This was accomplished after His Death Burial, Resurrection and Ascension ! He stated so here Lk 24:26

    Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?


    Heb 8:1

    Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

    Thats His Throne of Glory, on the Right Hand of the Throne of Majesty in the Heavens !

    Now do you deny that Christ has entered into His Glory and sits on His Throne of Glory NOW !

    If He sits on it Now, He is in the Regeneration that He spoke of in Matt 19:28 and His Disciples sit togeter with Him Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

    Where did I say that, demand or suggest that ? There you go lying and misrepresenting what I stated. Show us, you liar, where I stated that !

    This is what I stated you liar:

     
  6. The Biblicist

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    1. Titus 3:5 proves that "regeneration" and "born again" are one and the same thing and it is INSIDE a person rather than in heaven.

    Tit. 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


    2. Mt. 19:28 is speaking of a TIME when the apostles sit on twelve thrones and rule over Israel. They will not rule over anyone until after the resurrectiona and rewarding. The "regeneration" is speaking of the changed earth after He returns. The only one ruling now in heaven is God with Christ sitting at his right hand.

    Mt. 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    The "throne of his glory" refers to his reign on a renewed earth yet to come. The apostles are not sitting upon twelve thrones in heaven nor are they ruling but that refers to the new earth yet to come after the resurrection and rewarding of the saints.


    3. Heaven is always referred to as "glory" because that is where the throne of God is found and His glory is revealed. He entered "glory" at his resurrection not to sit upon "his" throne but at the right hand of the Father who sits upon the throne. He will sit upon "his" throne in the restored earth yet to come
     
    #6 The Biblicist, Sep 19, 2012
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  7. savedbymercy

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    No Titus 3:5 does not prove they are the exact same thing ! The New Birth is a effect of the Regeneration. The washing of regeneration is the purification of sin that Christ's Death accomplished and He sat down at the Right Hand of God. Heb 1:3

    3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

    The word purge here is the greek word katharismos and means:


    a cleansing, purification, a ritual purgation or washing

    a) of the washing of the Jews before and after their meals

    b) of levitical purification of women after childbirth

    c) a cleansing from the guilt of sins wrought by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ

    The word denotes a washing as here Jn 2:6

    6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.

    The NIV reads:Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.

    Christ's Blood alone washes us from our sins Rev 1:5

    5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    Now that is the Washing of Regeneration. However the renewing of the Holy Ghost which is the by product is the New Birth out of the Regeneration.

    The word renewing Titus 3:5 is the greek word anakainōsis and means:

    a renewal, renovation, complete change for the better also

    to cause to grow up, new, to make new

    a) new strength and vigour is given to one

    b) to be changed into a new kind of life as opposed to the former corrupt state


    Now, the being begotten again of 1 Pet 1:3, the greek word for begotten again is anagennaō and means:


    to produce again, be born again, born anew

    2) metaph. to have one's mind changed so that he lives a new life and one conformed to the will of God

    You see how those definitions are very similar ? That is because the renewing of the Holy Ghost is the same as being Born Anew

    Now I have proved and defended my position from scripture !

    You have yet to do that, because you can't, your best defense is to evade this evidence by saying it is out of context or something weak that !
     
  8. The Biblicist

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    Titus 3:5 does NOT say "an effect of washing of regeneration" and there is nothing in heaven to be RENEWED. What is being RENEWED and undergoing a WASHING of regeneration is INSIDE man not inside heaven. Ephesians 4:24 and Colossians 3:10 speak of the same INWARD renewing and cleansing by the creative act of the Holy Spirit. You don't know what you are talking about and worse yet you are perverting the Word of God. The conscience of the elect is defiled by sin and must be cleansed by the water of the word of the gospel - Heb. 9:14:

    Heb. 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    To "purge" means to "CLEANSE" and regeneration WASHES and RENEWS the conscience.

    Matthew 19:28 has nothing to do with heaven but has to do with reigning on a RENEWED earth.

    Your false doctrines lead to more false doctrines.
     
    #8 The Biblicist, Sep 19, 2012
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  9. The Biblicist

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    Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

    Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

    1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

    There is an INWARD renewal and cleansing (washing) of man at new birth and it is called "regeneration."
     
  10. savedbymercy

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    Is that your defense or rebuttal ? Well neither does it say it is not an effect of the washing of regeneration !

    Yet I proved to you by scripture how it is !
     
  11. The Biblicist

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    The only thing you proved AGAIN is your complete ineptness to interpret scripture correctly.

    Matthew 19:28 by no stretch of imagination refers to heaven but to a renewed earth as the twelve apostles are not reigning on twelve thrones in heaven right now so your sole proof text is rediculous.

    Titus 3:5 does not say "effect of" but what it describes IS "regeneration" not an effect of regeneration. It occurs INSIDE the elect ON EARTH not OUTSIDE the elect IN HEAVEN.

    Titus 3:5 is speaking of the work of THE HOLY SPIRIT not Christ "renewing BY THE HOLY SPIRIT"

    Your interpretations are rediculous!

    NOTHING is being renewed BY THE HOLY SPIRIT in heaven
     
  12. savedbymercy

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    Thats always your lame excuse. You cannot disprove anything I stated with scripture !
     
  13. The Biblicist

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    Can't you understand what you read? Titus 3:5 and the work of regeneration is explicitly said to be the work of THE HOLY SPIRIT not Christ:

    "washing of regeneration and renewing BY THE HOLY GHOST" not by Christ.

    Your whole lame interpretation claims it is a work of Christ when he entered heaven.
     
  14. savedbymercy

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    Look, again another lying misrept of what I stated.

    Now liar, show us the post where I stated something is being renewed by the Holy Spirit in Heaven !

    Thats your defense, to lie about things I said ? Show the post !
     
  15. savedbymercy

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    Of course, who said it did not occur in time ? I did not. However the Elect as a whole body were all quickened together with Christ when God raised Him from the Dead. Eph 2:5-6



    Even when we[The Body or the Church] were dead in sins, hath quickened us[ The Body or Church] together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

    6 And hath raised us[The Body or Church] up together, and made us[The Body or Church] sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

    Notice Paul's use of the plural pronouns : we, us, us together with Christ !

    The whole Body of the Elect were together Raised with their Head Christ. In fact this is alluded to in the OT scriptures !

    Isa 26:19

    Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

    Hos 6:2

    2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

    Now each member of Christ's Body that has been raised up together with Him, in time and at God's appointed time are quickened or given New Birth from above ! They have the life already in Union with Christ their risen Head, but now it is communicated to them in the time state to resurrect them from spiritual death in trespasses and sins, so we have Eph 2:1

    And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;


    [edited] further name-calling will result in further infractions.
     
    #15 savedbymercy, Sep 19, 2012
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  16. The Biblicist

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    I said that Titus 3:5 proves that regeneration and new birth are the same thing and it occurs INSIDE the elect not IN HEAVEN and you responded with these words:

    No Titus 3:5 does not prove they are the exact same thing ! The New Birth is a effect of the Regeneration. The washing of regeneration is the purification of sin that Christ's Death accomplished and He sat down at the Right Hand of God

    However, that is not true. The washing of regeneration AND renewing refers to the internal work of the Holy Spirit INSIDE the elect not the work of Christ FOR sinners or what occurred in heaven.

    The English as well as the Greek grammer demand that both "washing of regeneration" AND "renewing" are the work of the Holy Spirit rather than the work of Christ.
     
    #16 The Biblicist, Sep 19, 2012
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  17. savedbymercy

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    And I stated they are not. The Regeneration is the coroporate cleansing and or washing of all the Body of the Elect by the Purification of Christ Heb 1:3

    3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

    The New Birth or being born again is on a individual basis whenever God has determined to make them alive !
     
  18. The Biblicist

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    You are missing the point. The regeneration in Titus 3:5 is the work of the Holy Spirit not the work of Christ. It is the Holy Spirit's work on earth not Christ's work in heaven.

    The text nor context says a thing about heaven, or anything done by Christ in heaven but it is all about the work of the Holy Spirit and that work is done inside the elect. This text says nothing about any kind of spiritual union with Christ but with internal CLEANSING and RENEWING exactly as Paul speaks about in Col. 3:10 and Eph. 4:24. You have NOTHING in this text or in Matthw 28:19 to support your imaginary doctrine.
     
    #18 The Biblicist, Sep 19, 2012
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  19. savedbymercy

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    No, you are, one is Collective and one is individual. An Individual technically cannot be the Regeneration !
     
  20. The Biblicist

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    Again, it is not Christ's work but the Holy Spirit's work and it is the Spirit's work set in contrast to our "works of righteousness which we have done."

    There is no mention of heaven, no mention of Christ, no mention of the body of Christ but a simple contrast between what does not save us "works of righteousenss which we have done" versus what does save us "washing of regeneration AND renewing of the Holy Ghost."

    This text does not say "THE regeneration" and even if it did it would be referring to the particular work of the Holy Spirit that all Christians under go.

    You have NOTHING in this text to support your wild imaginations and neither does Mathew 19:28 support anything you imagine.
     

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