What is Scripture?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Dr. Bob, Jul 31, 2004.

  1. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    We affirm that "all SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God . . . "

    God inspired (breathed His Words) writers to pen the exact chosen Words and record them for mankind. On this we would agree.

    1. Did God "re-inspire" Scriptures that were copies, making changes, corrections, addendums or deletions?

    2. Did God "re-inspire" Scriptures that were translations into other languages from said originals or copies?

    3. Did God "re-inspire" some English translations and not others?

    At the heart of the matter, of course, is the changing of the first fundamental of the faith (Niagara Conference) to include ONLY the AV1611. If "Scripture" now includes translations like the AV1611, and all "Scripture" is God-breathed, then is the AV1611 God breathed, perfect, unchangeable, etc?
     
  2. HankD

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    It has changed over the last 393 years, that is provable.

    HankD
     
  3. Charles Meadows

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    I think any CORRECT translation, rendered in reverence, is the word of God. The NIV, NASB, NKJV were all meticulously translated by multiple scholars - I don't know whether any ONE individual could reasonably do it alone (although some tried!).

    I've often heard it said that only the original autographs were absolutely inspired. I find this a little bit of a difficult concept since they are now nonexistent.

    All human language is limited in scope and delivery; and as such no "language" can fully contain the perfectness of God's truth. The most perfect word of God is that written in the heart of believers under the guidance of the spirit.
     
  4. gabe

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    "I think any CORRECT translation, rendered in reverence, is the word of God."

    But how do we determine what is correct?
     
  5. Trotter

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    The 'inspiration' was of the writers, not the ink put to the paper.

    In other words, the words they put forth, whether written or spoken, while they were 'inspired'. The actually writings were just that, written records of the 'inspired' words.

    When people start trying to shift the 'inspiration' to the paper and ink instead of the words themselves, then the people are moving into the realm of idolatry.

    There is a very good reason that the "originals" no longer exist. Man would have elevated these transcripts to the level of Nahustan, the bronze serpent that Moses made upon the order of the Lord. Because the image was kept around after its need was fulfilled, the people began to worship it instead of God. And the same would be done for the "originals" of the written Scriptures.

    What is Scripture?

    Scripture is the written words of the bible.

    1. Did God "re-inspire" Scriptures that were copies, making changes, corrections, addendums or deletions?

    No. The 'inspiration' was of the writers, not the written records.

    2. Did God "re-inspire" Scriptures that were translations into other languages from said originals or copies?

    No. The 'inspiration' was of the writers, not the written records.

    3. Did God "re-inspire" some English translations and not others?

    No. The 'inspiration' was of the writers, not the written records.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  6. Dr. Bob

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    But could an "inspired writer" write down something that wasn't, therefore, "inspired". If they did, then they were not inspired (or were lying).

    ergo the fruit of inspiration of a writer is inspired written records.
     
  7. gabe

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    but how do we determine which words are the words of God?
     
  8. HankD

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    Do you mean for instance the writings of Paul which never made it into the Bible?

    One of the criteria is "God-breathed", another is that they were "moved by the Holy Spirit" under these criteria and finally, God's preservation of those scripture through the Church of Jesus Christ ("the pillar and ground of truth" - before the decline of the apostasy of "christendom") we have the canon of Scripture identified by name and preserved in the words of the original languages.

    Therefore if some new epistle by Paul (and could be truly verified) were discovered like "The Epistle to the Church at Laodicea", then I would say, no, it is not Scripture but a VERY interesting historical document.

    It would also be an interesting dilemma.

    HankD
     
  9. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------

    All human language is limited in scope and delivery; and as such no "language" can fully contain the perfectness of God's truth. The most perfect word of God is that written in the heart of believers under the guidance of the spirit.
    --------------------------------------------------

    If this is true, then how do you explain:

    Acts 2

    5. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
    6. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
    7. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
    8. And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
    9. Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
    10. Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
    11. Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
    12. And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
    13. Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
    14. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
    15. For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
    16. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
    17. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
    18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:


    Now if God CLEARLY HAS the POWER through the Holy Spirit of truth (John 16) to give all these people from all nations, give not only hearing, but UNDERSTANDING in their own language, why do you deny this power of God over his words concerning His written words? It is by his written words (the Holy Scriptures) that we learn of Him and grow in him:

    Matthew 22

    29. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

    Luke 24

    26. Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
    27. And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

    ...

    44. And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
    45. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

    John 5

    37. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
    38. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
    39. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
    40. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

    Acts 17

    2. And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
    3. Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

    ...

    11. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

    Acts 18

    24. And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
    25. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
    26. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
    27. And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
    28. For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

    Romans 15

    1. We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
    2. Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.
    3. For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.
    4. For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

    Romans 16

    25. Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
    26. But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    27. To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

    Acts 15

    13. And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
    14. Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
    15. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
    16. After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
    17. That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
    18. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
    19. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
    20. But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
    21. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

    Acts 28

    28. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
    29. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

    30. And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
    31. Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

    Romans 1

    16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
    17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
    18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
    20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Romans 9

    17. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
    18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
    19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
    20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
    21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
    22. What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
    23. And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
    24. Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
    25. As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
    26. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

    Romans 11

    30. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
    31. Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
    32. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
    33. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
    34. For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
    35. Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
    36. For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

    Romans 16

    30. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
    31. Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
    32. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
    33. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
    34. For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
    35. Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
    36. For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

    1 Cor. 2

    9. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
    10. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
    11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
    12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
    13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
    15. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
    16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

    Col.1

    26. Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
    27. To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
    28. Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

    2 Tim. 3

    14. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
    15. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


    How then are we faithful in English, to be thouroughly furnished unto all good works, if we have not ALL THE HOLY SCRIPTURES?

    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  10. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    but how do we determine which words are the words of God?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    We can't make that determination of or by "our own selves", for it is of, by, and through the Holy Spirit of truth that reveals this to us.

    John 16

    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  11. superdave

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    michelle,
    There is a logical flaw in your reasoning, in the first post above, you attempt to limit the scope of the Holy Spirit's power of revelation, and in the next, you insert the authority of the Holy Spirit beneath the foundation of God's Word.

    I am confused, either you do or do not rely on the Spirit for your revelation, there is no middle ground on the issue. You hold to a specific translation of God's Word by the testimony of the Spirit in your life, yet don't recognize that this belief throws out a major tenet of Fundamentalism and the first Baptist Distinctive, that the Bible is our only rule for faith and practice.

    Being both a fundamentalist and a Baptist, I hold to that truth, and since I cannot support a KJVO position from scripture alone, but by your own testimony would have to have special revelation given to me by the spirit in order to be privileged to know that particular nugget of truth.

    The verses you quote to support the KJV, also support the other translations in English that have been made faithfully from the over 5000 Manuscripts in the original languages.


    For the sake of His name
    -Dave
     
  12. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    There is a logical flaw in your reasoning, in the first post above, you attempt to limit the scope of the Holy Spirit's power of revelation, and in the next, you insert the authority of the Holy Spirit beneath the foundation of God's Word.
    --------------------------------------------------


    I don't start with logic first. I start with FAITH FIRST.


    The foundation (Holy Scriptures) is laid by the Holy Spirit, and then revealed by the Holy Spirit through the word, to which is also preserved by the Holy Spirit. John 16

    Ephesians 1

    13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    14. Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
    15. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
    16. Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
    17. That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
    18. The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
    19. And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

    2 Tim.2

    15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Romans 10

    13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
    15. And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
    16. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
    17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    18. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  13. gb93433

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    Think about how your statement fits in 1 Cor. 13:9, "For we know in part and we prophesy in part;"
     
  14. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    Think about how your statement fits in 1 Cor. 13:9, "For we know in part and we prophesy in part;"
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This is best understood when you compare it with:

    1 Cor.13

    9. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    10. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
    11. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
    12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

    and ....

    Hebrews 12

    1. Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
    2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
    3. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
    4. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
    5. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
    6. For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
    7. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
    8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
    9. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
    10. For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
    11. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
    12. Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
    13. And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

    Ephesians 4

    1. I Therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
    2. With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
    3. Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
    4. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
    5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
    6. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
    7. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
    8. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
    9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
    10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
    11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
    14. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
    15. But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
    16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
    17. This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
    18. Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
    19. Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
    20. But ye have not so learned Christ;
    21. If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
    22. That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
    23. And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
    24. And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    2 Peter 1

    15. Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
    16. For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
    17. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
    18. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
    19. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
    20. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
    21. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    Revelation 19

    9. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
    10. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.


    Take special note of 2 Peter 1:19.

    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  15. robycop3

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    Dr.Bob:But could an "inspired writer" write down something that wasn't, therefore, "inspired". If they did, then they were not inspired (or were lying).

    ergo the fruit of inspiration of a writer is inspired written records.


    When John wrote the Revelation, he was directly told, by Jesus, sometimes by an angel, and sometimes by a voice of authority we can attribute to God, to write certain things directly as was dictated to him. However, when seeing things such as the armies and weapons of the future, he could only use the best description he could give with his 1st century knowledge. Only now are we learning what the things are that he described. He was describing flying machines, explosions, flight suits & protective gear quite like that of the present. Not until WW1 could anyone adequately realize what he'd seen.

    And the "wormwood" verses are almost certainly describing a meteor. John may have had a little idea that rocks fall from the sky from the shrine at Ephesus built for a meteor they ascribed to the Roman goddess Diana.(who, BTW, became the "patron goddess" of witchcraft)

    These descriptions were almost certainly derived from John's own mind, but the inspiration, of course, was from God, as He showed these things to John. John had been told to write everything down, except for the seven thunders. Some parts of the vision were explained to John, which he duly recorded, while others were not, & John described them best he could. If you've ever seen an A-10 attack aircraft, or our newer TOWs in action, Revelation should immediately come to mind.

    I believe this is all part of the increase in travel and knowledge prophesied to Daniel.
     
  16. michelle

    michelle
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    However, when seeing things such as the armies and weapons of the future, he could only use the best description he could give with his 1st century knowledge.
    --------------------------------------------------

    How is this statement true, if God is the CREATOR of all, and KNOWS ALL? (including languages and the history from beginning to end.) God would have, and DID give to John and all others exactly what HE wanted them to have, and KNOWING what they would write and how they would write it. They wrote down what was told, as God gave it to them. Who are you to say they didn't understand? How do you know?

    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  17. gb93433

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    Is 1 Cor 13:12 true or not? It seems that you have overridden that verse and its interpretation.


    I do not have all the gifts, so I am limited by what God has given me. My knowledge is limited by my finite mind. My spiritual knowledge and maturity is also limited. God has chosen not to give me all knowledge and know all mysteries at this time.

    Even one of Paul’s associates wrote in 2 Peter 3:14-16, “Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

    Even Peter writes that Paul writes things that are hard to understand. If that is the case then who am I to say I understand well what Peter says are hard to understand. If I understood I would not need God because I would be Him.
     
  18. michelle

    michelle
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    I do not have all the gifts, so I am limited by what God has given me. My knowledge is limited by my finite mind. My spiritual knowledge and maturity is also limited. God has chosen not to give me all knowledge and know all mysteries at this time.
    --------------------------------------------------


    This is exactly what I was trying to show.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  19. HankD

    HankD
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    Acts 2 was a one time event with the Holy Spirit coming down from heaven upon the Apostles endowing them miraculously with languages they need not learn or the people around them heard them in their own tongues in a miraculous manner.

    It was a fulfilment of Joel 2 (at least a partial fulfilment). It was a visible sign for the Nation of Israel with God the Holy Spirit bearing witness with signs and wonders for the benefit of the "men of Israel"

    No such thing happened in 1611.
    The translators learned the languages the hard way. They studied in seminary for years and years. The Spirit of God did not supply the words.
    They took them from manuscipts of the original languages they had to learn the hard way. The manuscripts they used differed from one another. They had to make their choices without miracles. They were not the Nation of Israel. The time of signs and wonders as a witness to Israel had been over for almost 1600 years. The Holy Spirit did not endow them miraculously with apostolic powers, there were no tongues of fire, etc, etc, etc.

    For 193 years they corrected their work (well, them or their predecessors).

    whew!

    HankD
     
  20. michelle

    michelle
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    No such thing happened in 1611.
    The translators learned the languages the hard way. They studied in seminary for years and years. The Spirit of God did not supply the words.
    --------------------------------------------------

    How do you know what God did and did not do? Do you doubt he guided them? Do you not believe that God desires ALL HIS SAINTS to have his WORDS? Psalm 12.

    Please read:

    Romans 11

    30. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
    31. Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
    32. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
    33. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
    34. For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
    35. Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
    36. For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

    1 Cor.2

    9. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
    10. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
    11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
    12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
    13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
    15. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
    16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

    Jeremiah 18

    1. The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,
    2. Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
    3. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
    4. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
    5. Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
    6. O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
    7. At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
    8. If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
    9. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
    10. If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

    Romans 9

    17. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
    18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
    19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
    20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
    21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
    22. What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
    23. And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
    24. Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
    25. As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
    26. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     

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