What is Sin?

Get your own theology degree... :wavey:

 

You just showed in a very definitive sense that you do not understand grammar, and with that, Scripture which must be read gramatically. Reading a Greek verb in the aorist tense is not an "interpretation." It is what -- exactly -- the text says.

 

No one disputes that. Paul says that "death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

The Greek word translated "have sinned" in in the second aorist tense so of course later Paul would speak of those same deaths as already happened.

So nothing about that helps you case in any way.

The important question is whether the death spoken of comes as a result of Adam's sin or as a result of a man's own sin. Paul made it plain that the death comes as a result of a man's own sins:

"...death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

Since that completely destroys your ideas you must pervert what Paul sais so you just edit what Paul wrote by adding the following words in "bold":

"...death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned IN ADAM" (Ro.5:12).

According to you Paul's complete discourse on this subject is always in regard to Adam's sin and it never speaks of death being brought about by a man's own sin. However, you continue to justy IGNORE this verse which proves you are wrong:

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous" (Ro.5:19).

It was by Adam's sin that many were made "sinners." A person does not become a "murderer" until he murders someone and no one becomes a "robber" until he robs someone. It is also true that no one becomes a "sinner" until he sins. So Romans 5:19 is not talking about Adam's sin at all. Even John Calvin affirms that truth:

"This is no tautology, but a necessary explanation of the former verse. For he shows that we are guilty through the offense of one man, in such a manner as not to be ourselves innocent. He had said before, that we are condemned; but that no one might claim for himself innocence, he also subjoined, that every one is condemned because he is a sinner" (John Calvin, Commentary on Romans 5:19).

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
No one disputes that the words "be dead" in verse 15 speaks of something that has already happened. However, that helps you in no way.

Paul says that "death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

The Greek word translated "have sinned" in in the second aorist tense so of course later Paul would speak of those same deaths as already happened.

So nothing about that helps you case in any way.

It not only helps me but absolutely denies your FUTURE conditional application of both texts (Rom. 5:12; 15). Both aorists point to the SAME COMPLETED ACTION when Adam sinned.

Neither is an Aorist SUBJUNCTIVE and neither is a CONDITIONAL clause. One or the other would be necessary for you interpretation of both verses.

This condemns your theory completely and fully without question or reservation!




Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
The important question is whether the death spoken of comes as a result of Adam's sin or as a result of a man's own sin. Paul made it plain that the death comes as a result of a man's own sins:

"...death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

The "death" passed upon all men is the legally "dead" state of human nature which occurred AORIST TENSE COMPLETED ACTION "by one man's offence."

Adam reproduced after his own kind = spiritual dead human nature consisting of spirit, soul and body.

Since that completely destroys your ideas you must pervert what Paul sais so you just edit what Paul wrote by adding the following words in "bold":

"...death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned IN ADAM" (Ro.5:12).

 

Earlier I said:

Let us look at the following verse:

"But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many" (Ro.5:15).

The Greek word translated "hath abounded" is in the "aorist" tense but that does not mean that a person did nothing to receive the gift by grace. The only people who are justified freely by God's grace are those who believe.

To this you said:

So are you saying that those who receive the free gift receive it without believing?

If the "free gift" in imputed to men in the same way that you say that "death" is imputed to man (as a result of Adam's sin) then that must be your argument. Imagine that! A person does not have to do anything to receive the gift.

Yes, a person is chosen "in Christ" for salvation before the foundation of the world but being chosen for salvation depends on a person believing the truth:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

Are you saying that a person can will himself to believe the gospel?

How is that possible? If a person is making an effort to "will" himself to believe something then that can only mean that he already believes that thing. If he already believes the gospel then he would make no sense to assert that he is willing himself to believe something that he already knows is true.

Now please answer my question. If you are right and the free gift is imputed to men in the same way that you say that "death" is imputed to man (as a result of Adam's sin) then those who receive the gift do nothing to receive it.

Is that what you are saying?

 

Yes, but even in the Calvinist view of regeneration a person must do something, and that is to listen to the gspel. A person cannot be partakers of the promises "in Christ" apart from the gospel:

"That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel" (Eph.3:6).

Even the Calvinists admit that a person cannot be regenerated apart from the word of God:

"All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit...This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from any thing at all foreseen in man, who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it" (The Westminster Confession of Faith; X/1,2).

According to this the "effective calling" is done through both the Word and the Spirit so a man must at least listen to the gospel.

I believe that you are right but the fact remains that if anyone is going to receive faith he must at least listen and hear the gospel:

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Ro.10:17).

So I cannot understand how anyone can say that a person does not participate in any way in his regeneration.

 

I beleive the new birth is inseparable with conversion in a cause and effect relationship so that the new birth is not finished until conversion occurs. Hence, what Christ did as a respresentative man is received through birth just as what Adam did as a representative man is received through birth. The difference is that one is NATURAL birth and the other is SUPERnatural birth.

Is that not what a "FREE" gift is? FREE!

You do make a distinction between the prepositions "to" versus "through" or a proper definition of either!

Before the world began he was chosen "TO" salvation! He was not chosen "BECAUSE OF" salvation but "TO" salvation! God chose the MEANS ("through") as much as God chose the persons. The chosen MEANS ("through") of salvation was "sanctification of the Spirit" or setting apart by the Spirit in the work of regeneration - creating them in Christ Jesus. In addition to ["and"]quickening by the Spirit "belief of the truth" or conversion. The work of the Spirit precedes and is the causal effect of belief in the truth and together they constitute the effectual call through the gospel (v. 14). However, election is TO salvation while the sanctification/belief is the MEANS by which salvation is obtained in time and space. Choice by God precedes and is causal to obtaining salvation in time and space.

 

"Eternal life" is a free gift:

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ro.6:23).

Only those who "believe" receive this free gift:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:15-16).

Now I will ask you again:

"So are you saying that those who receive the free gift receive it without believing?"

Now let us look at the following passage again:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

To this you say:

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "through" at 2 Thess.2:13 is "by" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

There are two preopositional phrases in the verse:

"through sanctification of the Spirit..."

"[through] belief of the truth."

Both are adverbial phrases and they serve to modify the verb "hath chosen."

From the beginning God chose some to be saved and the method he used to determine whom He would chose was "belief of the truth" and "sanctification of the Spirit."

The following verse is speaking of the same thing:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "according" at 1 Peter 1:2 is "in consequence of" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So the saved are described as "elect" and their election is "in consequence of" God's foreknowledge. with this established let us look at the verse again:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "sanctification" is "consecration" and that word means "to separate from things profaneand dedicate to God" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The following verse describes this consecration when believers are separated from things profane and dedicated to God:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...the Body of Christ" (1 Cor.12:13,27).

And that is exactly what Paul is referring to when he uses the word 'in Him" in the following verse:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).

So we are chosen to salvation by the sanctification of the Spirit and that is the method God uses to save us. And the other criteria which determines whom God choses for salvation is "belief in the truth."

So no one is chosen for salvation until they believe the gospel and no one is placed "in Christ" until they believe.

Now please answer my question:

"So are you saying that those who receive the free gift receive it without believing?"

Thanks!

 

There is eternal life by quickening which creates a new heart in the elect. It is with this new heart that man believeth "with the heart man beleiveth" (Rom. 10:10).

There is eternal life by justification which follows faith. Justification is the reversal of condemnation UNTO DEATH to justification UNTO LIFE.

Hence, SPIRITUAL quickening precedes faith but LEGAL justification of life follows faith. Both are eternal life. The former is eternal life by IMPARTATION whereas the latter is by IMPUTATION. The former has to do with your CONDITION whereas the latter has to do with your legal POSITION as declared by law. The former has to do with your own person as God's "child" whereas the latter has to do with your legal inheritance as God's "son." The former is SPIRITUAL life whereas the latter is LEGAL life but both are ETERNAL and both are LIFE!

John 5:24 contains both. The believing one has eternal life (judicial) because he has passed from death unto life (spiritual) at new birth.

John 3:16 has to do with judicial life in contrast to legal condemnation (Jn. 3:17-18).

I know you will not accept this, but you are asking how do I reconcile it. That is how!

First, note how you REVERSE the order of "santification" and "belief" above! You must do this because you understand that sanctification of the Spirit preceding "belief" of the truth could not be affected by the will of man in the Biblical order and so you reverse it.

Second you have changed the means into a CONDITIONAL method for determining who God will choose to salvation. However, the prepositional phrases are not causual. They do not provide any causes for choice but rather consequences. This is clearly proven by Ephesians 1:4 where God's choice is the cause and the consequences are "might be holy and blameless before him in love" rather than they were chosen BECAUSE they were holy and blameless."

That is simply not true! The words "according to" can mean "in keeping with" or "in accord with".

However, let us suppose your interpretation of "kata" is true. Foreknowledge is a consequence not the cause of Divine purpose in Romans 8:28-29. Divine purpose precedes both foreknolwedge and predestination in Romans 8:28-29 just as foreknowledge and predestination precede calling, justificaiton and glorification.

A builder has a blue print and because of that blue print he knows before hand where each room has been predetermined. Likewise, election is based upon God's foreknowledge of His purpose for election. That purpose is spelled out in such passages as Ephesians 1:4-13; John 6:37-37; 17:2-3; etc.

Your problem is that the order (you reverse BTW) given by Paul is that sanctification precedes beleif of the truth and yet it is belief of the truth that consecrates not vice versa! So you are not only guilty of reversing the order but the order given by Paul repudiates your misinterpretation.

I don't have time here to provide a complete contextual analysis of this text. However, I will just shoot from the hip and tell you this verse refers to the problem and solution for that problem in 1 Corinthians 1-3. They had been divided over their baptismal administrators and Paul's solution is that all baptismal administrator work as ONE under the leadership of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 3:5-10) in building the congregation at Corinth or any local congregation as a "temple" of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 3:16). Hence, under the leadership of One Spirit they had been water baptized into one body, one in kind, the kind found at Corinth (v. 27) and made to partake of his presence by the very fact that God the Holy Spirit instead of the human administrator set the members in the body as it pleased him (1 Cor. 12:18) even the bad ones (1 Cor. 11:17-18) providing the spiritual gifts that ministered to all the members (I Cor. 12:1-11; 14:1-41).

So this text has nothing to do with your argument.

Another equally false interpretation. Note the consequential phrase "THAT we SHOULD BE" not because He foresaw us to be and those chose us! Furthermore, the baptism in the Spirit occured on the day of Pentecost and yet all the saints prior to Pentecost were chose to salvation as much as those after Pentecost and they could not have been baptized in the Spirit (Rom. 4; Gal. 3:6-8; Heb. 11; Heb. 4:2; Acts 10:43; etc.).

So, I have answered your questions and corrected you false interpretations. However, I doubt if my answers will be accepted.

 

We can see that in order to answer my question you say that the Scriptures speak of a person receiving two separate and distinct 'lifes" which are described as being "eternal":

Since you cannot answer the points which I make you just "invent" an "eternal life" that is separate and distinct from the one which is found in the Lord Jesus Christ:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (Jn.5:11).

How does a person receive this eternal life?:

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:15-16).

But you invent another 'eternal life" which you think a person receives BEFORE he believes:

Let us look at a verse which the Calvinists admit refers to regeneration:

"...even when we were dead in sins, hath made us alive together with (syzōopoieō) Christ, (by grace ye are saved)" (Eph.2:5).

Here the Greek word syzōopoieō is translated "hath made us alive together."

The Greek word syzōopoieō is made up of two words, zōopoieō and syn.

The word zōopoieō means to "make alive, give life" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The word syn means "with, besides, accompany...a primary preposition denoting union" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So when a person is regenerated he is made alive together with Christ or placed in union with Him. The following verse desribes that union we have with the Lord Jesus and it also describes the life we enjoy when we are made alive together with Him:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

That is the same exact 'eternal life" which only comes to those who believe!

When a verse does not fit your view you just add words to it until it does. Now we see that you must invent another "eternal life" that is separate and distinct from the one which only comes by "faith."

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
We can see that in order to answer my question you say that the Scriptures speak of a person receiving two separate and distinct 'lifes" which are described as being "eternal":

Since you cannot answer the points which I make you just "invent" an "eternal life" that is separate and distinct from the one which is found in the Lord Jesus Christ:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (Jn.5:11).

How does a person receive this eternal life?:

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:15-16).

ut you invent another 'eternal life" which you think a person receives BEFORE he believes:



What I have stated is what I have believed for years long before I ever entered this discussion with you. It is no invention on my part but a clear distinction between regenerative life by the Spirit and judicial life by the decree of God's law that reverses condemnation to death to justification of life.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
Let us look at a verse which the Calvinists admit refers to regeneration:

"...even when we were dead in sins, hath made us alive together with (syzōopoieō) Christ, (by grace ye are saved)" (Eph.2:5).

Here the Greek word syzōopoieō is translated "hath made us alive together."

The Greek word syzōopoieō is made up of two words, zōopoieō and syn.

The word zōopoieō means to "make alive, give life" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The word syn means "with, besides, accompany...a primary preposition denoting union" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So when a person is regenerated he is made alive together with Christ or placed in union with Him. The following verse desribes that union we have with the Lord Jesus and it also describes the life we enjoy when we are made alive together with Him:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

That is the same exact 'eternal life" which only comes to those who believe!

When a verse does not fit your view you just add words to it until it does. Now we see that you must invent another "eternal life" that is separate and distinct from the one which only comes by "faith."


There is spiritual union with Christ by quickening and there is legal union with Christ by justification both are union with Christ but both are not equal. One is SPIRITUAL whereas the other is LEGAL.

It does not take too much common sense to see that regeneration and justification are not one and the same. The first has to do with you own PERSON whereas the latter has to do with your POSITION. The former IMPARTS life while the latter IMPUTES life. The former has to do with become a child (tekna) while the latter has do with becoming a legal heir (huios) "son."

 

The Calvinist admit that this verse is speaking a spiritual union with Christ:

"When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions" (Col.2:12-13).

We can also see that this regeneration does not happen until a person has his transgressions or sins forgiven--"having forgiven us all our transgressions."

We also know that no one has their sins forgiven until they believe:

"All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name" (Acts 10:43).; NIV).

According to your bankrupt theology before a person believes he can be in spiritual union with Christ even though his sins are not forgiven. According to you a person can remain unrighteous and be in spiritual union with the Lord Jesus! But that is impossible:

"For what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?" (2 Cor.6:14).

A person is not made righteous until he believes:

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Ro.10:10).

A person does not receive the righteousness which is of God until he believes so therefore he cannot be in spiritual "union" with Christ until he believes. After all, "what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?"

According to your mistaken ideas a person who has not had his sins forgiven and therefore remains defiled by those sins can be in a spiritual union with the holy Jesus Christ.

You also believe that an unrighteous person can be in spiritual union with the Righteous Lord Jesus.

When a verse does not fit your view you just add words to that verse until it fits your theology. Then when you cannot explain the fact that no one receives the gift of eternal life except by faith you just invent another separate and distinct "eternal life" that is obtained apart from faith!

 

Justification gave one access to God who you had been separated from God because of sin. Reconciliation brought about by, the death/shedding of blood
of Jesus Rom5:9,10

Regeneration is the last part of both verses. V10 we shall be saved (future) in the life of him. That is by his resurrected life which is eternal life he received by promise and inheritance. The promise in Titus 1:2 could be made only to the Christ the seed to come to whom the promises was made, the sinless Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. It is he who received that life by resurrection/regeneration and presently that life is in him. V9 we shall be saved (future) from wrath through him. The wrath of God in the day of the Lord.

What brought about the reconciliation and future salvation, the gift of God?
He, God the Father saved us (past tense) by the washing (shed blood of Jesus his only begotten Son) of (of means the washing only applied being the following took place) regeneration (Acts2:32 This Jesus did God raise up, resurrection) and renewing of the Holy Spirit (Acts2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit.)

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood (living souls) cannot inherit the kingdom of God;
For this corruptible (body, A2:31 neither his flesh did see corruption) must put on incorruption, (A13:34 he raised him up from the dead, no more to return to corruption) and this mortal (soul, A2:31 that his soul was not left in hell) [must] put on immortality. (John5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself).

 

Regeneration and conversion are simeltaneous in time but in a cause and effect logical relationship with each other.

So one is not without the other. Remission of sins is part of justification (Rom. 4:7-8 is it not? Hence, the text provides the initial cause - spiritual life, concluding with consequence of justification forgiveness of sins.

Look, what is the laws verdict in regard to sinners? Condemnation! Correct. Condemnation to what? Death in its fullness - ETERNAL DEATH.

Justification is the legal reversal of that verdict. What would be the legal reversal of that verdict? ETERNAL LIFE!

Like I said, you won't accept it but you asked for my answer and I have given it to you repeatedly.

 

Romans 14:3 is the best all-inclusive definition of sin there is. If God is not leading a person to think or do something (i.e., if they are not being activated by faith), then whatever they are thinking or doing is sin.

 

Romans 14 deals with things neither right or wrong in and of themselves. The principle is if a person esteems such things wrong, then to him they are wrong and for him to violate that beleif is sin because he violates his own conscience in the matter.

That is particularly why God can hold heathen accountable on the day of judgement because they all violate what their conscience confirms to be right to them.

Conscience can be perverted, retrained and even seared. It can be retrained by parents, by society according to cultural taboos and norms. Regardles, lost man will always violate whatever standard their conscience has accepted and that is sin and that is a just basis to condemn them as sinners in the day of judgement. They will always violate it because sin is rebellion against any authority over self but self.

However, I think an even better definition of sin that goes to the very root of all sin is a wrong motive behind anything you say or do. Paul repeated defines the only right motive for whatever one says or does is "do ALL for the glory of God." Sin is coming short of the glory of God in all they you think, say and do.

Hence, a fire fighter can sacrifice his life in doing his duty in saving a child from a house. A soldier in war can sacrifice his life to save his buddes. You don't have to be a Christian to do either of these things. However, society looks at such sacrifices and judges such men to be saintly and good. However, God looks at the heart instead of the action and in particular looks at the intent/motive behind that and all other words and actions. It was either done for the glory of God or it was done for some other motive. Sin is coming short of the glory of God in all that we say, do or think.

1Co 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


Rom. 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

You want to ignore the fact that if a person is regenerated prior to faith then "logically" that person is in spiritual union with Christ while his sins remain unforgiven and he remains unrighteous. But that is impossible:

"For what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?" (2 Cor.6:14).

A person is not made righteous until he believes:

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Ro.10:10).

A person does not receive the righteousness which is of God until he believes so therefore "logically" he cannot be in spiritual union with Christ until he believes. After all, "what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?"

According to your mistaken ideas a person who has not had his sins forgiven and therefore remains defiled by those sins can be in a spiritual union with the holy Jesus Christ.

You also believe that "logically" an unrighteous person can be in spiritual union with the Righteous Lord Jesus.

When a verse does not fit your view you just add words to that verse until it fits your theology. Then when you cannot explain the fact that no one receives the gift of eternal life except by faith you just invent another separate and distinct "eternal life" that is obtained apart from faith!