What is the Atonement?

Discussion in 'Pastoral Ministries' started by Robert William, Mar 27, 2015.

  1. Robert William

    Robert William
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    A very large majority of Pastors are preaching that Jesus Atoned for all humans, it's shameful to see so many ignoramus pastors in the pulpits, in my opinion they are not qualified.

    Limited Atonement (Particular Redemption)
    Limited Atonement is a doctrine offered in answer to the question, "for whose sins did Christ atone?" The Bible teaches that Christ died for those whom God gave him to save (John 17:9). Christ died, indeed, for many people, but not all (Matthew 26:28). Specifically, Christ died for the invisible Church -- the sum total of all those who would ever rightly bear the name "Christian" (Ephesians 5:25).
    This doctrine often finds many objections, mostly from those who think that Limited Atonement does damage to evangelism. We have already seen that Christ will not lose any that the father has given to him (John 6:37). Christ's death was not a death of potential atonement for all people. Believing that Jesus' death was a potential, symbolic atonement for anyone who might possibly, in the future, accept him trivializes Christ's act of atonement. Christ died to atone for specific sins of specific sinners. Christ died to make holy the church. He did not atone for all men, because obviously all men are not saved. Evangelism is actually lifted up in this doctrine, for the evangelist may tell his congregation that Christ died for sinners, and that he will not lose any of those for whom he died!
     
  2. Revmitchell

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    Yep just another cagey calvinist flooding the internet.
     
  3. JonC

    JonC
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    I always figured those of us who are saved realized that Christ died for our sins. I didn't know that those who were not saved were concerned with the answer. It seems very reasonable to me that the extent of the atonement would make for a very poor sermon.
     
  4. Robert William

    Robert William
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    Nope, I'm not a Calvinist, now what's your excuse for ignorance of scripture.
     
  5. Revmitchell

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    Aaaaaannd, you prove my point.
     
  6. Robert William

    Robert William
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    This topic is mostly directed to ignorant pastors and Lord Lord types who think their free will has saved them, the real topic is the Sovereignty of God.

    Does God love everyone? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3TfWyJNwDw
     
  7. Robert William

    Robert William
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gn-_U5BzSBU Free will video by Dr. Robert Morey

    Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
    Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
    Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
    Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
    Joh 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
    Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
    Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
    Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
    Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
    Joh 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
    Joh 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
    Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
    Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
    Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
    Joh 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
    Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

    Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

    Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
     
    #7 Robert William, Mar 27, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2015
  8. InTheLight

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    You come on here and post a generic insult. Are you a pastor? Do you ever preach?

    <snip Statement of Faith stuff>
     
  9. Robert William

    Robert William
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    You know as well as I do, if you asked the majority of preachers in North America if they believe that Christ atoned for all humans, the majority will say yes, they have been poisoned by Pelagianism and have embraced it to protect their free will idol.
     
  10. InTheLight

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    You come on here and post a generic insult. Are you a pastor? Do you ever preach?
     
  11. JonC

    JonC
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    I suppose God does love everyone, but not in the same way. All men are created in the image of God (even fallen man if we take Deuteronomy 22 as valid). So there is a sense as Creator that God does love all man. Reading his plea for repentance towards those who do not repent bears this out (e.g., Matthew 13; Jeremiah 3; Hosea 14). There is also the aspect of God’s design. Through all men God will be glorified (granted, not necessarily in the same manner). But everything, to include salvation itself, is God centered and for His glory (e.g., John 12;Romans 9) . God has a special love, however, for His own people. They are described as a particular possession set apart from the rest of creation. That particular love is extended to those whom are redeemed alone (Ephesians 5; John 3; 1 Peter 2).
     
  12. PreachTony

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    No one I know thinks their "free will" saved them. We know that God saved us. We just happen to realize that that salvation required our faith to take effect in our lives. Your school of thought would have people believe they are saved before they ever believe. That is anti-scriptural.

    I really wish you would get over this "free will idol" crap. You cannot expect any reasonable discussion or debate so long as you castigate half the board by calling them idol worshipers.:BangHead:
     
  13. Rippon

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    Are you blind? Are you claiming that you are unaware that Calvinists are accused of worshipping John Calvin --that he is our idol? That's the sick length that many on this board go to. I have no respect for anyone using that disgraceful speech.
     
  14. Robert William

    Robert William
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    Thanks, you have just proven my point by saying salvation was dependant on your faith, your faith your work your choice your action your verb, that's salvation by works. That sounds like a very serious problem to me, and not crap as you say.
     
  15. Robert William

    Robert William
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    It's wrath or love, and the bible says wrath, unless you think most humans are believing ones. Don't listen to the majority of spineless preachers preaching a false love.

    Joh_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
     
  16. JonC

    JonC
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    I actually was not taking the word of others (which is why I indicated my conclusions by referencing Scripture). I suppose your next step would be defining the wrath of God as opposite from His love (within the context of the thread).
     
  17. Robert William

    Robert William
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    If you want, you could say, His loving wrath will throw the majority of all mankind into the eternal lake of fire to be tormented.:love2:
     
  18. Robert William

    Robert William
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    Yes, crap it is, so crappy that it has polluted the doctrines of the fall of man, the gospel and the Atonement, I would say that's a very serious crappy problem with most preachers.
     
  19. PreachTony

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    Scripture says "by grace are ye saved through FAITH." It also says faith comes by hearing the preached word of God. Are you saying that the Bible is wrong? That's what it sounds like to me. It sounds as though you are saying that, even though a divinely inspired Paul penned down these words telling the Ephesians and Romans that salvation comes to us by faith, and we have faith by hearing the preached word of God, and our faith is not a work, so no man can boast of it...that after all that Paul was simply wrong?
     
  20. Robert William

    Robert William
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    We are going around in circles, Grace to regenerate has to come first, otherwise faith is just an act of man a work a belief a verb an action a decision a belief, and that would be salvation by works.
     

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