What is the Baptist interpretation to "Eat My Fles

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by faith in the south, Apr 29, 2006.

  1. faith in the south

    faith in the south
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    I hear over and over again how Catholics beleive and pratice things that are not in the bible. Here is one dogma of the RCC that is in the bible over and over again- We must truly eat his flesh and drink his blood if we are to have life in us. Yet, with only a couple of exceptions, protestants discount this command either entirely or they discount the literal interpretation and claim it is only symbollical at best. Why? Convince me. Convince us Catholics that we are wrong on this issue. Why do you take the scriptires literally on so many other issues and yet on this most important issue, you calim it is now only symbolic?

    Save all of the other debates for other thread!


    Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist
    Jn 6:35-71 - Eucharist promised
    Mt 26:26ff (Mk 14:22ff., Lk 22:17ff.) - Eucharist instituted
    1Cor 10:16 - Eucharist = participation in Christ's body & blood
    1 Cor 11:23-29 - receiving unworthily his body & blood
    Ex 12:8, 46 - Paschal lamb had to be eaten
    Jn 1:29 - Jesus called "Lamb of God"
    1 Cor 5:7 - Jesus called "paschal lamb who has been sacrificed
    Jn 4:31-34; Mt 16;5-12 - Jesus talking symbolically about food
    1Cor 2:14-3:4 - explains what "the flesh" means in Jn 6:63
    Ps 14:4; Is 9:18-20; Is 49:26; Mic 3:3; 2Sm 23:15-17; Rv 17:6, 16 -
    to symbolically eat & drink one's body & blood = assault
     
  2. faith in the south

    faith in the south
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    I found this really interesting.

    The doctrine of the Eucharist is explicit in the Bible. It left no doubt that this is not metaphor.

    From the Bible:


    Matt. 16:12 - in this verse, Jesus explains His metaphorical use of the term "bread." In John 6, He eliminates any metaphorical possibilities.

    John 6:35,41,48,51 - Jesus says four times "I AM the bread from heaven." It is He, Himself, the eternal bread from heaven.

    John 6:51-52- then Jesus says that the bread He is referring to is His flesh. The Jews take Him literally and immediately question such a teaching. How can this man give us His flesh to eat?

    John 6:53 - 58 - Jesus does not correct their literal interpretation. Instead, Jesus eliminates any metaphorical interpretations by swearing an oath and being even more literal about eating His flesh. In fact, Jesus says four times we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. Catholics thus believe that Jesus makes present His body and blood in the sacrifice of the Mass. Protestants, if they are not going to become Catholic, can only argue that Jesus was somehow speaking symbolically.

    John 6:23-53 - however, a symbolic interpretation is not plausible. Throughout these verses, the Greek text uses the word "phago" nine times. "Phago" literally means "to eat" or "physically consume." Like the Protestants of our day, the disciples take issue with Jesus' literal usage of "eat." So Jesus does what?

    John 6:54, 56, 57, 58 - He uses an even more literal verb, translated as "trogo," which means to gnaw or chew or crunch. He increases the literalness and drives his message home. Jesus will literally give us His flesh and blood to eat. The word “trogo” is only used two other times in the New Testament (in Matt. 24:38 and John 13:18) and it always means to literally gnaw or chew meat. While “phago” might also have a spiritual application, "trogo" is never used metaphorically in Greek. So Protestants cannot find one verse in Scripture where "trogo" is used symbolically, and yet this must be their argument if they are going to deny the Catholic understanding of Jesus' words. Moreover, the Jews already knew Jesus was speaking literally even before Jesus used the word “trogo” when they said “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” (John 6:52). John 6:55 - to clarify further, Jesus says "For My Flesh is food indeed, and My Blood is drink indeed." This phrase can only be understood as being responsive to those who do not believe that Jesus' flesh is food indeed, and His blood is drink indeed. Further, Jesus uses the word which is translated as "sarx." "Sarx" means flesh (not "soma" which means body). See, for example, John 1:13,14; 3:6; 8:15; 17:2; Matt. 16:17; 19:5; 24:22; 26:41; Mark 10:8; 13:20; 14:38; and Luke 3:6; 24:39 which provides other examples in Scripture where "sarx" means flesh. It is always literal.


    John 6:55 - further, the phrases "real" food and "real" drink use the word "alethes." "Alethes" means "really" or "truly," and would only be used if there were doubts concerning the reality of Jesus' flesh and blood as being food and drink. Thus, Jesus is emphasizing the miracle of His body and blood being actual food and drink.


    John 6:60 - as are many anti-Catholics today, Jesus' disciples are scandalized by these words. They even ask, "Who can 'listen' to it (much less understand it)?" To the unillumined mind, it seems grotesque.


    John 6:61-63 - Jesus acknowledges their disgust. Jesus' use of the phrase "the spirit gives life" means the disciples need supernatural faith, not logic, to understand His words.

    www.scripturecatholic.com
     
  3. JackRUS

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    "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: (did you catch that?) the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63.

    Jesus did not mean to literally eat His flesh in verse 56. I will explain this Hebrew idiom, to eat and drink, for the edification of our readers.

    The Hebrews used this expression with reference to knowledge by the metonymy of the subject, as in Ex. 24:11 where it is put forth for being alive; so eating and drinking denoted the operation of the mind in receiving and inwardly digesting truth or the words of God.

    See Deut. 8:3 and compare it with Jer. 15:16 and Ezek. 2:8. No idiom was more common in the days of the Lord. By comparing vv. 47 and 48 with vv. 53 and 54, we see that believing on Christ was exactly the same thing as eating and drinking Him as He put forth this kind of metaphorical parable to separate the men from the boys among His disciples. You will notice that after that, He was then left with only the twelve, just as the Father willed. (John 17:6). You will also notice that the disciples that took this eating and drinking to be literal were the spiritually blind that left Jesus in verse 66. (52,60-61)

    Jesus told the Apostles to do this in remembrance of Me; not do this in order to receive Me. Jesus is in a physical glorified body in real form and space with a finite area in His resurrected body. He is not being literally consumed by anyone. Remember, His body is not to see corruption (Ps. 16:10), and that includes any ride through the digestive tract, not to mention its inevitable final journey to the sewage treatment plant.

    Furthermore, commands to not consume blood can be found in Gen. 9:4; Lev. 7:26-27; 17:10,12-14; 19:26; Deut. 12:15-16,23; 1 Sam. 14:32-34; Ezek. 32:25; and yes, this law still holds in the time after Christ’s death: Acts 15:28-29.

    Tertullian (155/160-240/250 A.D.) spoke of the bread and wine in the eucharist as symbols or figures which represent the body and blood of Christ. He specifically stated that these were not the literal body and blood of the Lord. When Christ said, ‘This is my body,’ Tertullian maintained that Jesus was speaking figuratively and that he consecrated the wine ‘in memory of his blood’ (Against Marcion 3.19)...

    Clement of Alexandria (150-211/216 A.D.) also called the bread and wine symbols of the body and blood of Christ, and taught that the communicant received not the physical but the spiritual life of Christ.8 Origen (185-253/254 A.D.), likewise, speaks in distinctively spiritual and allegorical terms when referring to the eucharist.

    Eusebius of Caesarea (263-340 A.D.) identified the elements with the body and blood of Christ but, like Tertullian, saw the elements as being symbolical or representative of spiritual realities. He specifically states that the bread and wine are symbols of the Lord’s body and blood and that Christ’s words in John 6 are to be understood spiritually and figuratively as opposed to a physical and literal sense.
     
  4. faith in the south

    faith in the south
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    1Cor 10:16 - Eucharist = participation in Christ's body & blood
    1 Cor 11:23-29 - receiving unworthily his body & blood

    In this part of the Bible is clear that The bread becomes Jesus in 1 Cor 11, 29, its very clear and leds to no other interpretation, you drink and eat, and its it the body of Christ, no doughts.
    Interpretations are free, but the Truth is one, the Truth is in the Bible, the word of God. In think you are puting your own interpretation before the Bible. But the Bible is the Bible, you must follow it. The Spiritual communion with Jesus you can have it praying, but Jesus instituted for us the Eucaristy, for he lives with us forever, we dont need to go to the first century to see him, he is the Eucaristy, and with our pariticiation in the Eucaristy we are part of his mistical body, The Church.
     
  5. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    What is the Catholic interpretation of "I am the door"? Do they take this literally as well?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  6. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    Do you believe that Jesus was literally a lamb?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  7. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Is this a picture of what you think Jesus might have literally looked like?

    Lamb Link

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    [ May 01, 2006, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]
     
  8. Joseph_Botwinick

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    How about this:

    Door Link

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    [ May 01, 2006, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]
     
  9. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Jesus said, "I am the light of the world".

    Light of the world Link

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    [ May 01, 2006, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]
     
  10. Joseph_Botwinick

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    I AM the true vine.

    Vine Link

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    [ May 01, 2006, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]
     
  11. faith in the south

    faith in the south
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    We know those are symbols. Dont be ridiculous!!!
    He spoke in parabolas, and explained them in private to the apostles. But there are no doughts in the Bible that he ment the bread to become his own body, he was not speaking methaforically.
    There are symbols of the Eucaristy in the Old Testament, like the "Lamb of God", "The Mana (bread) from God to the Jews", the multiplication on the Bread, that anticipated the Institution of the Eucaristy in the Last Supper.
     
  12. Joseph_Botwinick

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    So you don't take the whole Bible literally?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  13. Joseph_Botwinick

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    In John 8, Jesus was not speaking in a parable when he called himself the light of the world.

    Was he also speaking in parable when the Bible refers to Jesus as the lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world? Nope.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  14. Joseph_Botwinick

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    So what do you think?

    Joseph Botwinick

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    [ May 01, 2006, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]
     
  15. stan the man

    stan the man
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    Tertullian
    "[T]here is not a soul that can at all procure salvation, except it believe whilst it is in the flesh, so true is it that the flesh is the very condition on which salvation hinges. And since the soul is, in consequence of its salvation, chosen to the service of God, it is the flesh which actually renders it capable of such service. The flesh, indeed, is washed [in baptism], in order that the soul may be cleansed . . . the flesh is shadowed with the imposition of hands [in confirmation], that the soul also may be illuminated by the Spirit; the flesh feeds [in the Eucharist] on the body and blood of Christ, that the soul likewise may be filled with God" (The Resurrection of the Dead 8 [A.D. 210]).

    Clement of Alexandria
    "’Eat my flesh,’ [Jesus] says, ‘and drink my blood.’ The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children" (The Instructor of Children 1:6:43:3 [A.D. 191]).
     
  16. faith in the south

    faith in the south
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    can you explain this to me.
     
  17. faith in the south

    faith in the south
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    Ok. but wich part should we take literally and wich not?? Who has the Authority to take the Bible and determine it.
     
  18. Joseph_Botwinick

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    So what do you think?

    Joseph Botwinick
    </font>[/QUOTE]Nope. You answer my question first, and then tell me by what authority you came to that interpretation.

    Joseph Botwinick

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    [ May 01, 2006, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]
     
  19. faith in the south

    faith in the south
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    [ Is this a picture of what you think Jesus might have literally looked like?

    [Joseph Botwinick
    [/QUOTE]


    No Joseph, definitely not.
    To answer your second question: The Succession of the Apostles, and the Successor of Peter, the Pope, who can tie things in earth and those will be tied in Heaven.
     
  20. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Did they tell you not to take the words calling Jesus a lamb literally?

    Joseph Botwinick
     

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