What is the Falling Away?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by KenH, Jun 8, 2002.

  1. KenH

    KenH
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    (2 Th 2:3 NKJV) Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

    What is the "falling away"? Has it already happened? What will be its character?

    Any ideas?

    Thanks.

    Ken

    [ June 08, 2002, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  2. Miss Bobbie

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    Ken, it's my understanding and viewpoint that the "falling away" is the rapture of the Church.
     
  3. BrianT

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    I think these verses talk about it more:

    Matt 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

    1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

    I think in general, yes it has happened. If it is in reference to a specific time/event, I don't know.
     
  4. BrianT

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    Hi Miss Bobbie - that is a fairly uncommon but interesting understanding. Can you explain in more detail why you think that? I always thought the rapture was about "rising", not "falling" ;)
     
  5. Bro. John Willis

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    You bet your bottom dollar it has and is!!
    Look at all of the apostate churches and believers. Just start with the Catholics and you will definitely get to the Protestants of which some name themselves Baptist. The pretrib folks are waiting for the 'Anti-Christ' to take his seat in the so-called rebuilt Jerusalem Temple, but can't quite get it together on 1stJohn chapter2. This falling away started in the First Century and is still going on today. So, I guess that the 'Antichrist' has already been revealed all of you pre-mes. With all candor aside, the mere fact that you've got folks talking about a "pre" eschatology is sheer proof of the falling away.
    Keep it up. You are asking the right questions!
    Your brother
    John
     
  6. LadyEagle

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    Does anybody else think this is a mean comment besides me? :eek:

    Pre-tribs could turn it around and say the mere fact that you post-tribs are in denial is sheer proof of falling away. But I don't see where these types of comments are edifying to the Body of Christ, quite frankly.

    Lets focus instead on the REAL falling away: Churches who no longer promote the Gospel of Jesus Christ, who preach a social gospel, who take the Blood out of their hymns, who use a gender-neutral Bible, who preach a feel-good gospel. Those who preach homosexuality is okay, after all it is part of a Love message. Or those who speak about God but DENY the power of God. Or perhaps schools (universities, colleges) which were once founded on Christian sound fundamental doctrine, even Baptist schools, but now are secular in all words and deeds---I can think of several. The list goes on and on, and I'm sure others here could think of plenty of examples of "falling away" and preaching that "tickles itching ears." Let's stick to truth, please, and not denigrate brothers and sisters who believe pre-trib versus post-trib. Can we have Brotherly Love abound? :rolleyes:

    Edited to say: Baptists are not Protestants! :rolleyes:

    And also just noticed this is my 666 post! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

    [ June 09, 2002, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: EagleLives911 ]
     
  7. Miss Bobbie

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    Hi Miss Bobbie - that is a fairly uncommon but interesting understanding. Can you explain in more detail why you think that? I always thought the rapture was about "rising", not "falling" ;) </font>[/QUOTE]No, Brian, I sure can't! [​IMG] What was I thinking?!! I claim sleep deprivation and a preoccupation with hockey to account for my error. :D

    I checked several of the Bibles in my collection and have formed an opinion. The verse in question is 2 Thessalonians 2:3, and my NIV states: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day [the day of the Lord or second coming] will not come until the rebellion [falling away - loss of the Holy Spirit] occurs and the man of lawlessness [antichrist] is revealed."

    Now look at verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work [ain't it the truth!]; but the one who now holds it back [Holy Spirit] will continue to do so till he [Holy Spirit] is taken out of the way [with the Believers at the Rapture]."

    Does that make sense? In any case, I appreciate your post, Brian - you made me think! [​IMG]
     
  8. LadyEagle

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    oh, Miss Bobbie, very good! I may have to rethink & study about the falling away. Good points! Perhaps there are two falling aways? One to mean the rapture, and the other falling away from sound doctrine? Hmmmm.....
     
  9. KenH

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    Below is an excerpt from one well-known Baptist preacher that preceded Spurgeon in London, John Gill. I found this today in his commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2:3. What do ya'll think about what Brother Gill wrote?

    Thanks. [​IMG]

    Ken

    except there come a falling away first;
    either in a political sense, of the nations from the Roman empire, which was divided into the eastern and western empire; for which, way was made by translating the seat of empire from Rome to Byzantium, or Constantinople; the former of these empires was seized by Mahomet, and still possessed by the Turks; and the latter was overrun by the Goths, Huns, and Vandals, and torn to pieces; Italy particularly was ravaged by them, and Rome itself was sacked and taken: or rather in a religious sense, of the falling of men from the faith of the Gospel, from the purity of Gospel doctrines, discipline, worship, and ordinances; and this not of some Jews who professed faith in Christ, and departed from it, or of some Christians who went off to the Gnostics; but is to be understood of a more general defection in the times of the Papacy; when not only the eastern churches were perverted and corrupted by Mahomet, and drawn off to his religion, but the western churches were most sadly depraved by the man of sin, by bringing in errors of all sorts in doctrine, making innovations in every ordinance, and appointing new ones, and introducing both Judaism and Paganism into the churches; which general defection continued until the times of the reformation, and is what the apostle has respect to in (1 Timothy 4:1-3) where he manifestly points out some of the Popish tenets, as forbidding marriage to priests, and ordering abstinence from meats on certain days, and at certain times of the year: this was one thing that was to precede the coming of Christ, another follows, which should take place at the same time;

    [ June 09, 2002, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  10. BrianT

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    LOL, Miss Bobbie. [​IMG] No problem, I know what sleep deprivation is all about. ;) But although I am Canadian, I don't share your enthusiasm for hockey. [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I have a book called "Another Look at the Rapture" by Dr. Roy Hicks, where an entire chapter is spent discussing how the "falling away" in 2 Thess 2:3 means the rapture, ie. a "departure". I don't agree with his interpretaion, but it is an interesting read anyway. I thought it would be interesting to have a discussion with someone who holds that view. [​IMG]

    [ June 09, 2002, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: BrianT ]
     
  11. Pastor Larry

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  12. donnA

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    I have always believed that it was when those who are not true believers finally wander away from christianity, and are revealed for who they are. IMO
     
  13. postrib

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    I don't believe the one taken out of the way (2 Thessalonians 2:7) can be the Holy Spirit because many Christians will still be on the earth during the Antichrist’s rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), and no one can be a Christian without the Spirit (Romans 8:9).

    The Greek word for "falling away" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is apostasia. I believe Paul is referring to the same departure from the faith that he refers to in 1 Timothy 4:1 and which Jesus refers to in Matthew 24:10-12. Note that apostasia isn't used in the Bible or in other ancient Greek literature to refer to people departing from a physical location, but is used in the ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament (for example, Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and in the New Testament (Acts 21:21) to refer to people departing from their religion. Look at its primary definition and you will see why: "defection, revolt, especially in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy."

    In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, I believe Paul makes clear that the apostasy and abomination of desolation must occur before the day Jesus comes to gather us together, for Jesus' coming to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (verse 8). I believe Paul is referring to the same coming and gathering together as Matthew 24:29-31. I don't believe Paul taught a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture.

    Compare John 6:66.

    http://www.geocities.com/postrib

    [ June 11, 2002, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: postrib ]
     
  14. tyndale1946

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    The Anti-Christ is mentioned during the times of the Apostles and so is the falling away. They couldn't fall away unless they were where they could fall away. The falling away started during the days of the Apostles and since then there has been a constant falling away. A progressive falling away from truth and sound doctrine in every age of the church. A study of church history through the ages will show this to be true as the stages of the seven churches of Asia reflect the same... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  15. Molly

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    Yes,Tyndale! My thoughts exactly! The apostacy,falling away from sound teaching. Great explaining!
     
  16. Bro. John Willis

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    Does anybody else think this is a mean comment besides me? :eek:

    Pre-tribs could turn it around and say the mere fact that you post-tribs are in denial is sheer proof of falling away. But I don't see where these types of comments are edifying to the Body of Christ, quite frankly.

    Lets focus instead on the REAL falling away: Churches who no longer promote the Gospel of Jesus Christ, who preach a social gospel, who take the Blood out of their hymns, who use a gender-neutral Bible, who preach a feel-good gospel. Those who preach homosexuality is okay, after all it is part of a Love message. Or those who speak about God but DENY the power of God. Or perhaps schools (universities, colleges) which were once founded on Christian sound fundamental doctrine, even Baptist schools, but now are secular in all words and deeds---I can think of several. The list goes on and on, and I'm sure others here could think of plenty of examples of "falling away" and preaching that "tickles itching ears." Let's stick to truth, please, and not denigrate brothers and sisters who believe pre-trib versus post-trib. Can we have Brotherly Love abound? :rolleyes:

    Edited to say: Baptists are not Protestants! :rolleyes:

    And also just noticed this is my 666 post! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
    </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you Eagle for your comments upholding my position. Everything that you said we should identify as "Falling away" was covered by the general statements that I made in my earlier post.
    Ken did a marvelous job showing support for my post with commentary from no less than John Gill; you know the one that Spurgeon owes the vast majority of his theology to. I really don't know why you would say that my comments were mean? As a matter of fact they are covered by and acceptable with the "Rules" for the forumn posted on the opening page to this site. Maybe if you try to see and understand the points that non-premillenialism and pre-tribulationism makes, it would help to not get offended when you encounter disagreement to your eschatological stance.
    Your brother
    John
    P.S. From looking at later posts, guess no one agreed with you.
    IICor.13:8
     
  17. LadyEagle

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    It doesn't matter if anyone else agreed with me or not. [​IMG] The regular posters on here know I'm emotional, sometimes crabby, and sometimes my hormone pill doesn't work good enough!
    [​IMG] :D :D ;) [​IMG]

    But have a wonderful day! [​IMG]
     
  18. Joy

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    All the Believers after the Pentecost that is! The Believers before were promised the Comforter, but did not have him indwelling their bodies until Pentecost.

    At the Rapture, the Holy Spirit will be taken away with the church. God will be working primarily through and with the Jews once again., who in the OT, and in the Trib., are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

    Apostacia can't mean anything other than what it is- apostacy. While the Bible still teaches a Pre-trib rapture, this verse is speaking of a falling away from Doctrine, which has been happening since Christ ascended back into Heaven.
     
  19. Daniel David

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    Just a quick note, the Holy Spirit does not leave the earth. He is omnipresent. The manner in which He operates changes a little. So when pretribbers speak of Him being removed at the rapture, it isn't a spacial thing.

    From Pentecost until the rapture, believers are indwelt by the Spirit. After the rapture, the Spirit will operate in a manner similar to that of His role in the Old Testament. He will come upon people, just not indwell them.

    Also, people have always been saved by having the Holy Spirit do a work on their hearts. Jesus told Nicodemus about being born of the Spirit before Pentecost. Salvation has never and will never change.
     
  20. tyndale1946

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    Everyone on here is waiting for the Anti-Christ! Would someone give me proof that he ever left?... Brother Glen :confused:
     

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