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What is the one determining factor when an unbeliever comes to faith in Christ?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by canadyjd, May 29, 2011.

?
  1. God's intervention in the unbelievers life

    30 vote(s)
    90.9%
  2. The unbelievers own natural ability to choose God

    3 vote(s)
    9.1%
  1. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    False. If God has decided those who do not suppress the truth for a lie and come to Him freely will be saved, He is still the deciding factor.

    In your model the person who receives a gift on their birthday was the sole reason for the gift being given.
     
  2. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Well stated. :thumbsup:
     
  3. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I apologize if I have offended you. That was not my intention.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  4. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    The work of Holy Spirit is essential and is, imho, God's intervention into man's life.

    I agree with you that man must answer the call. I see man's response to God's intervention as the appropriation of salvation by faith.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  5. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    But God is able to push the men out of the way each and every time He attempts it.

    You have God pushing each person with the same amount of force. God knows how much resistence He will encounter with each person. He knows when to push a little or a lot harder to get the people where He wants them.

    Are there some people He doesn't push at all? Does He just let them get run over due to their own decision to be in the road?

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #25 canadyjd, Jun 8, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 8, 2011
  6. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I disagree.

    I believe scripture teaches that all have suppressed the truth for the lie. All are condemned before God.

    But even if you don't believe as I do (and I, with all humility, charity, and honesty, affirm that you might hold that view....) if God is responding to what man does in electing people to salvation, then man is the deciding factor in his own salvation.

    If, on the other hand, man is responding to what God has done by intervening in his life, then God is the determining factor in salvation.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  7. allinall

    allinall New Member

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    Press the question...if you dare.

    "Think of it this way, in personal terms. If you are a Christian you are surely aware of other people who are not Christians. Why is it that you have chosen Christ and they have not? Why did you say yes to prevenient grace while they said no? Was it because you were more righteous than they were? If so, then indeed you have something in which to boast. Was that greater righteousness something you achieved on your own or was it the gift of God? If it was something you achieved, then at the bottom line your salvation depends on your own righteousness. If the righteousness was a gift, then why didn’t God give the same gift to everybody?

    Perhaps it wasn’t because you were more righteous. Perhaps it was because you are more intelligent. Why are you more intelligent? Because you study more (which really means you are more righteous)? Or are you more intelligent because God gave you a gift of intelligence he withheld from others?

    To be sure, most Christians who hold to the prevenient grace view would shrink from such answers. They see the implied arrogance in them. Rather they are more likely to say, “No, I chose Christ because I recognized my desperate need for him.” That certainly sounds more humble. But I must press the question. Why did you recognize your desperate need for Christ while your neighbor didn’t? Was it because you were more righteous than your neighbor, or more intelligent?"


    http://www.reformationtheology.com/2..._prevenien.php

    When we "press the question", it should always ends at God's grace. But can the believer in prevenient grace make that claim? I say no. They say it's all of God, but when the question is pressed, we will see a different result. The one who holds to prevenient grace, meaning that God dispenced an equal amount of grace to everyone (therefore it is from God, they reason), but they also believe that what man does with that grace is the determining factor. So, it's a house of cards in reasoning. The believer in prevenient grace must give God His rightful sovereign place in election, or concede, that he is the deciding factor. There's no middle ground.

    Care to try? Here's the starter question.

    "Think of it this way, in personal terms. If you are a Christian you are surely aware of other people who are not Christians. Why is it that you have chosen Christ and they have not? Why did you say yes to prevenient grace while they said no?"

    peace

    Dave
     
    #27 allinall, Jun 8, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 8, 2011
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    What is prevenient grace
     
  9. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Not a "classic Arminianist" BUT
    belief that God extends to ALL peoples as a direct result of the Cross a type of "comon grace"...

    He desires ALL to become saved, knows that man cannot exercise faith in Jesus since we are sinners and unable to come to Christ on our own, so He sends forth sufficient grace to ALL, so anyone can believe in Jesus if they wish to, as it will be an act of their free will, now that God has allowed/enabled them to make a decision for Him now...
     
  10. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    If all have suppressed the truth for a lie...nobody will be saved.

    Silly. Are you the deciding factor in the entire process of giving and receiving a gift simply by accepting it? Do you thank yourself on your birthday for receiving a gift...or the one giving it? Why would you thank the one giving it if you hold to what you have stated...YOU were the deciding factor, proudly proclaim thanks and praise to yourself whenever you receive a gift :)
     
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I'll do as our Lord has done and answer a question with a question :) Can you know the thoughts of another human being? You wanted to "press the question"...you need to go all the way back, not only to where it is convenient.

    Your answers will be contingent on not only knowing what you know, but what the person who rejected Christ knows.
     
  12. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    No. But the problem with your analogy is that you have person A purposing to save both men from the oncoming disaster and failing the second time. If person A represents God then God is failing if he is purposing to save both times.

    In another thread you say God purposes to redeem every person. Most accountable persons are NOT redeemed- so God is trying to push a lot of folks out from the path the the truck and failing miserably in your system.

    You also have the second man, B2, more depraved [edit] than the first man, B1.
     
    #32 Luke2427, Jun 9, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2011
  13. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    This from "Setting the Record Straight" of the Society of Evangelical Arminians (Classical or Reformed if you will):
     
    #33 Allan, Jun 9, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 9, 2011
  14. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    He only failed if his purpose was to effectually save (not allow resistance); which is not our view and not the subject the analogy was attempting to address. But I should expect you to nit-pick the analogy rather than address the point actually being discussed since that has been you MO as of late

    You need to provide the actual quote or a link in order for me to reply to such misapplications of what I believe.

    Its not a failure if He has purposed for them to make a free choice and thus resist his appeal. The analogy was meant ONLY to serve the purpose to show that credit is still given to the rescuer in the first scenario even if the victim resists in the second scenario...a point you purposefully overlook.
     
  15. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    What about the child who grows up being discipled in the faith and believing the gospel and though still having sin, live their lives in faith? Did they too "suppress the truth for a lie" and become "defiled in their thinking" as these in Romans 1? If so, explain.
     
  16. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    The child, at some point, appropriated salvation by faith in Jesus Christ. Before that, in spite of their being discipled by good Christian parents all of their lives, they were "defiled in their thinking" and unsaved.

    To "suppress the truth for a lie" doesn't mean you have to be as bad/evil as you possibly can. Even with ongoing discipling, the child's spiritual condition is beyond our knowledge. I can't look inside and see if Holy Spirit is indwelling. Before salvation, however, all suppressed the truth of God's revelation and believed a lie, imho.

    Ghandi was taught as a young child that he was the re-incarnation of Budda (if I understand it correctly). Though he was taught to do good (according to man's standards), he had "suppressed the truth for a lie" even while he was a yound child attempting to do good.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  17. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    All have suppressed the truth for a lie and nobody will be saved....unless God intervenes in their lives.
    If you earn it, is it a gift? If God is responding to what man does in making the decision to elect them to salvation, then the man has earned it, imho.

    Your boss responds to your exceptionally good work by giving you a bonus and a promotion. You respond by accepting his offer. Is it a gift or did you earn it?

    Your boss, because of the kind intention of His heart and because of His purposes which only He knows, looks upon your horrible work, forgives you of your failures and offers you a bonus and a promotion. You know you didn't earn it. As a matter of fact, you know you deserve to be fired instead. You respond by accepting his offer. Is it a gift or did you earn it?

    peace to you:praying:
     
  18. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    You seem to equate defiled with unsaved, but the scripture says the "BECAME defiled," they were always unsaved. Is there any biblical support for the view that they are born defiled rather than what the scripture actually says, which is that they became defiled only after their rebellion?

    I agree. I never said it did. I argued that they had to clearly see and understand the truth in order to trade it in, but Calvinism insists they can't know God or understand spiritual matters from birth unless first effectually called. Yet, this text says they do know God and they do clearly see and understand his attributes which is the very reason they are without excuse.

    I'm just wanting to know how someone suppresses a truth they were born unable to see or hear? How does a man born totally depraved become blind and deaf and hardened to the gospel? If there is never a time in a persons life they are NOT suppressing the truth, then how can their come a time that they do suppress it?
     
  19. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    Very well put! Thank you for asking some intriguing questions. Can't wait to hear the Calvinist response.
     
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